been treating sailfin tang w/ cupramine for two months

[anthias26tang]

Hi ive got a sailfin tang, blue eye kole tang, and arch eye hawkfish in my 37 gallon quarantine. I started dosing with cupramine on Nov 20th. Probably took me about a week to get copper up to .50. I was testing copper once a week. It was always around .5 - .6.. only once was it a little lower. Ive got one pvc piece, one of those driftwood logs from a freshwater tank, a fake plant and another fake rock thing. Anyways, the kole tang and hawkfish havent had any signs of ich in three weeks. The sailfin however still seems to have ich. A couple weeks ago i started testing copper every other day. Always at the right level. I did two freshwater dips on the tang. I have no carbon in the tank. No sand. Now one thing is the tang hasnt had any ich on his body for a couple weeks, only on his tail and fins. But whats on his tail and fins dont look like normal ich specs. They seem like thicker spots? Could this maybe not be ich any more and just be scar tissue or something? Like the aftermath of the ich? Should i do a water change and get copper out and treat with something like maracyn plus to heal the tail and fins? Or keep treating with copper and add the maracyn as well? Ive used both before. They are safe to use together. Im just a little confused and frustrated as to why its been two months and im still seeing spots. I tried to take pictures but he moves to fast and his fins are always blurry. Thanks in advance for the help! Hope you guys can help

 

[Rea17]

Your description sounds like it could be Lymphocystis, look it up and see if it looks right. If it is, there's not much to do other than wait for it to resolve itself.

 

[anthias26tang]

No doesn't look like any of those. The spots aren't as big and like poofy looking as those. Although the kole tang might of had spots like those. He had weird spots on his fin but they were gone within a few days and haven't come back. Where does that come from? I haven't bought any new fish. These are old fish i took out of my 120 and left my 120 fishless for 12 weeks. And that disease just goes away? Will it come back?
But no the sailfin doesn't have the same spots. I mean they do look like ich spots just like thicker. Almost like their piled up.

 

[Mrscribbled]

The spots your referring to sound like lympho to me also, have seen it come and go many times.

 

[MrTuskfish]

The spots your referring to sound like lympho to me also, have seen it come and go many times.

Me too.

FWIW: FW dips do nothing for ich, the parasite is buried too deep. The white spots you see are not the actual parasite.

 

[anthias26tang]

Well why do so many people recommend freshwater dips then?
And the spots look nothing like the pictures I saw of lympho. I will try to get a picture soon.
If they are just ich spots how is it possible my tang still has ich after 2 months of copper?

 

[sandwi54]

Freshwater dips do knock off some other parasites such as flukes, velvet, or brooks, just not ich. Remember, there are dozens of common parasites in this hobby that can kill fish, and ich is just one of them.

Since you've been treating for 2 months, I would recommend removing the copper and just observe for six weeks. It's bad to put the fish under copper for this long anyway. If the fish looks clean of ich then you may go ahead and put it in the DT.

 

[snorvich]

Well why do so many people recommend freshwater dips then?
And the spots look nothing like the pictures I saw of lympho. I will try to get a picture soon.
If they are just ich spots how is it possible my tang still has ich after 2 months of copper?

People recommend fresh water dips for cryptocaryon irritans because they have no idea of what they are doing. Fresh water dips will ameliorate the symptoms of amyloodinium but not cure it.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I think half of the country would tell you that vitamin C or antibiotics cure the common cold too, despite countless studies to the contrary. I imagine FW dips are suggested because those folks heard it works, just like you did. Lots of folks think UV, garlic, or cleaner fish/shrimp cure ich too. They don't. There is lots of published research that show all of these scenarios. FW dips do provide some relief for, but do not cure, fish with parasites similar to ich. Probably the source of much of the mis-information. I would read a couple of good books on the hobby before you start buying more livestock. You cannot learn this hobby one question at a time. Sadly, LFS employees are often terrible sources of info. FWIW: Our hobby is not regulated to any extent and most info you get is not info that has been proven. Thus, the tons of mis-informatin that we hear about all areas of our hobby. There are many great aquarists on this forum and I take their advice without question; but I check any info I hear from most sources.

If your tang is still showing ich at this point, I'd guess that Cu levels fell below therapeutic levels during treatment (easy to do during a WC) or there was cross contamination from another tank. All it takes is one drop of water from an ich infested tank or a few seconds with Cu level too low to start the process all over.

 

[anthias26tang]

Well I have read books and researched online. I've been doing this for almost two years now..Just never quarantined and then decided to take everything out and leave the tank empty for 13 weeks and actually start quarantining. These are the last of my fish. My scopas tang and two clowns are already back in the DT and have been for the two months these fish have been in QT. These fish were waiting in my other 55 gallon tank while I was treating the first three. Now I'm leaving that one empty for 12 or so weeks. I have a seperate net, algae scrubber, food, salinity measure etc for each of my tanks. So not sure how I could of cross contaminated anything. going to do a water change and get most of the copper out then do another in a day or so to get the rest out. Then I will watch him and see what happens.

 

[snorvich]

I think half of the country would tell you that vitamin C or antibiotics cure the common cold too, despite countless studies to the contrary. I imagine FW dips are suggested because those folks heard it works, just like you did. Lots of folks think UV, garlic, or cleaner fish/shrimp cure ich too. They don't. There is lots of published research that show all of these scenarios. FW dips do provide some relief for, but do not cure, fish with parasites similar to ich. Probably the source of much of the mis-information. I would read a couple of good books on the hobby before you start buying more livestock. You cannot learn this hobby one question at a time. Sadly, LFS employees are often terrible sources of info. FWIW: Our hobby is not regulated to any extent and most info you get is not info that has been proven. Thus, the tons of mis-informatin that we hear about all areas of our hobby. There are many great aquarists on this forum and I take their advice without question; but I check any info I hear from most sources.

If your tang is still showing ich at this point, I'd guess that Cu levels fell below therapeutic levels during treatment (easy to do during a WC) or there was cross contamination from another tank. All it takes is one drop of water from an ich infested tank or a few seconds with Cu level too low to start the process all over.

A very articulate discussion, more so than mine. Although the original question/problem initially sounds like there may be lymphocystis, it may also be scars from the prior case of cryptocaryon irritans. But Steve is right; if the dose of copper became non therapeutic (less than), it restarts the clock on treatment.

 

[anthias26tang]

And there was one time that the copper dropped down to .3. Just once. That was about three weeks ago. That's when I started testing it every other day. And since then it has stayed at the right level. Does that mean I should start all over? and maybe leave the copper for one more week since it was about three weeks ago that it dropped? I still wonder what made it drop.

 

[snorvich]

Well I have read books and researched online. I've been doing this for almost two years now..Just never quarantined and then decided to take everything out and leave the tank empty for 13 weeks and actually start quarantining. These are the last of my fish. My scopas tang and two clowns are already back in the DT and have been for the two months these fish have been in QT. These fish were waiting in my other 55 gallon tank while I was treating the first three. Now I'm leaving that one empty for 12 or so weeks. I have a seperate net, algae scrubber, food, salinity measure etc for each of my tanks. So not sure how I could of cross contaminated anything. going to do a water change and get most of the copper out then do another in a day or so to get the rest out. Then I will watch him and see what happens.

Ich does not have to be visible to be present. If it affects the gills you will see respiration faster than normal and a tendency to hover near the water return. Flashing is another indication of a potential issue, be it cryptocaryon irritans or a variety of flukes.

 

[snorvich]

And there was one time that the copper dropped down to .3. Just once. That was about three weeks ago. That's when I started testing it every other day. And since then it has stayed at the right level. Does that mean I should start all over? and maybe leave the copper for one more week since it was about three weeks ago that it dropped? I still wonder what made it drop.

Give it another week to be on the safe side. ATO can cause the level to drop, evaporation can cause it to rise. A water change at a lower level can cause it to drop and the reverse if the level is higher. If there is anything that can/will absorb copper it can lower the level of copper.

 

[anthias26tang]

Ok one more week then. But I haven't seen either of the tangs doing any flashing the last couple of weeks. And their breathing has been completely normal. That's why I was wondering if it was possible it was just scars on the tail. I looked through thousands of pics on lympho and his look nothing like that. I really want to go take a picture or try to anyways. It's just that there's a crazy loud cockatoo in there and right now he's actually being quiet and any time of quiet from him is a miracle and I don't want to get him excited lol

 

[snorvich]

Ok one more week then. But I haven't seen either of the tangs doing any flashing the last couple of weeks. And their breathing has been completely normal. That's why I was wondering if it was possible it was just scars on the tail. I looked through thousands of pics on lympho and his look nothing like that. I really want to go take a picture or try to anyways. It's just that there's a crazy loud cockatoo in there and right now he's actually being quiet and any time of quiet from him is a miracle and I don't want to get him excited lol

Now that is a great reason! :lmao: If I had a cockatoo, I would not want to get him excited either. If respiration is normal, and no flashing, the odds are in your favor. Cryptocaryon irritans will look like salt whereas lymphocystis will look "lumpy".

 

[anthias26tang]

Yea they don't look lumpy. Alright I guess I'm gona go bother the beast so I can try to get a picture.

 

[anthias26tang]

Ok probably the best two pictures Im gona get. Dumb fish lol

 

[anthias26tang]

Can't even really tell what they actually look like in those pictures. It's probably just normal ich spots. They just looked different to me. Looks like there's less today than there were yesterday. It kind looked like a bunch of ich spots piled on top of each other. Like if there were three layers to his tail each layer had a bunch of ich spots. But they look better today. Testing my copper while I'm in here. And the fishes breathing still looks fine and nobody's flashing

 

[MrTuskfish]

Can't even really tell what they actually look like in those pictures. It's probably just normal ich spots. They just looked different to me. Looks like there's less today than there were yesterday. It kind looked like a bunch of ich spots piled on top of each other. Like if there were three layers to his tail each layer had a bunch of ich spots. But they look better today. Testing my copper while I'm in here. And the fishes breathing still looks fine and nobody's flashing

Going in circles; this description does sound like lympho: I can't see anything on the pics. A "bunch of ich spots piled on top of each other..." sounds more like lympho (to me) than ich. . Ich spots are usually uniform in size (this is key to proper ID, IMO) and don't often share space with other ich spots. Lympho cam be any shape and can vary considerably on the same fish; its a virus, so visible lympho involves countless organisms (I assume) and fish tissue. This seems to match Snorvich's description, above, of lympho being lumpy. I always compare most lympho to miniature cottage cheese or cauliflower. But, lympho can literally take on countless shapes and sizes. including depth, which will almost always be the same with ich spots. Ich is easy to recognize; most pics show very infected fish, but the single spots are uniform. You could look at 1000 pics of lympho and not see anything that really resembled the lympho on any given fish. However, Lympho will USUALLY be present in the same place much longer than ich. Ich has a life cycle time table to follow, so it is gone quite soon, with new spots to replace it.