velvetelvis
Active member
Oh, I knew that already.
I just wanted to point out another venue for aquarists interested in non-WC (at least, not WC in the traditional sense) marine angelfish.
Big news for angelfish fans of RCT
- Thread starter copps
- Start date
Oh, I knew that already.
I just wanted to point out another venue for aquarists interested in non-WC (at least, not WC in the traditional sense) marine angelfish.
velvetelvis
Active member
copps, I saw a couple of species that he's working on mentioned on another website. If he succeeds...I bow down to him in awe. 
copps
Premium Member
copps, I saw a couple of species that he's working on mentioned on another website. If he succeeds...I bow down to him in awe.
You mean you're not bowing already?
velvetelvis
Active member
LOL...well, yeah, I am. This will be like waiting for Christmas to arrive.
Chad Vossen
New member
can't wait to see what he's got planned!
twelvejewelz
New member
This is great news!! When do you think he will release the current stock? Or atleast a list of what would possibly be available? Do you know if hes trying any larger angels or sticking to strictly to the dwarfs? I would love to just get me a harem or pair of multibars captive bred. A captive bred bandit would be amazing as well. I cant wait!!
melanotaenia
New member
Well there are absolutely others working on this... and there are no big secrets... but most all breeding institutions keep some things back for a period of time. Frank is still not sure what will be available... as a friend who's been allowed to see many things through the years I asked Frank if I could go public with the news that he again has angels... and he said yes. This is big news for angelfish fans and so I wanted to get the word out... all angel fans need to know is that whatever does come available will be exciting!
I can certainly understand putting things on hold for a PH.D. From someone who knows, they take ALOT of time.
It would be neat if Frank posted a blog once he started growing out successful batches of new Angels. I am really excited to see what comes out of this based on what he had coming out of his program a few years back.
Oh and Copps, I did not mean to sound in any way negative in my post, it is more of just angst at wanting to know what he is dealing with over there. I would LOVE to see him deal with Interruptus, Personatus, or the like. I know that he can do it; IIRC they did raise a single Personatus at Wakiki a long time ago, right???
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melanotaenia
New member
Oh, I knew that already.
Agreed; it would be nice however to have more distinction between the two; captive breeding is much harder than raising fry you catch in the ocean. A question of sustainability of species could still be posed for the Wild caugt raised fry vs the captive bred that only require a few fish to be taken from the ocean to reproduce in captivity multiple offspring that do not involve robbing the ocean of developing fish.
Of course, the fact that man of those captive raised fish become fish food in the ocean still makes captive raising a great alternative to catching adult fish IMO.
velvetelvis
Active member
Good points. I'd like to see some set, industry-wide definitions that clearly explain the differences between CB and TR livestock, and which also establish labeling practices. Kind of like organic vs. hydroponic vs. conventional produce. 
All the same though, if captive-breeding gets a A+, I think tank-raising still gets at least an A-. As you said, it's a much better alternative than catching adults or sub-adults that could make up a viable wild breeding population. I think it also expands the range of species available to aquarists who want more sustainable livestock, but are still attracted to iconic reef species like tangs and angelfish, since many of those species haven't yet been bred successfully in captivity (or at least on a commercial scale, as far as I know).
Finally, I think it also gives the locals in those areas who are responsible for collecting the fry a reason to value and protect their reef. From what I understand, strict limits are set on which species and how many fry are collected, and the collectors only get paid for those species and amounts. Realistically, people who live by the ocean are probably always going to make a living from the ocean, but at least programs like this encourage them (ideally) to practice stewardship of wild reefs, rather than just plundering them.
All the same though, if captive-breeding gets a A+, I think tank-raising still gets at least an A-. As you said, it's a much better alternative than catching adults or sub-adults that could make up a viable wild breeding population. I think it also expands the range of species available to aquarists who want more sustainable livestock, but are still attracted to iconic reef species like tangs and angelfish, since many of those species haven't yet been bred successfully in captivity (or at least on a commercial scale, as far as I know).
Finally, I think it also gives the locals in those areas who are responsible for collecting the fry a reason to value and protect their reef. From what I understand, strict limits are set on which species and how many fry are collected, and the collectors only get paid for those species and amounts. Realistically, people who live by the ocean are probably always going to make a living from the ocean, but at least programs like this encourage them (ideally) to practice stewardship of wild reefs, rather than just plundering them.
The captive raised tangs and BS that has been coming into the hobby is a joke! Anyone can catch a small fish raise it an inch and call it captive raised. To think that they are catching these fish pre-settlement and raising them past settlement is idiotic at best. I can't believe people buy this. The fish are being collected post-settlement and being raised up a little until they look like they are in good shape and then being sold as captive raised. That is like going to one of the for-sale threads and buying a fish that is cheap because the seller wants to move the fish and then re-selling it for double as captive raised. Such a joke! Tangs have such a long larval phase and no one has yet to raise them, even though lots of people have been trying to raise "hawaii gold" for a while. Moving a planktonic larval fish is extremely stressful, let alone identifying them...
velvetelvis
Active member
What would you define as captive-raised, then? By definition, they're not fish that were actually hatched in captivity, so obviously they're going to be collected from the wild, and presumably they'd have to be old enough to be visible to the naked eye. How soon would they have to collect the larvae for them to qualify? Pre-settlement? Right at the moment the eggs are fertilized?
melanotaenia
New member
Back on topic, so who else is breeding Angels out there besides Frank over at RCT copps?
velvetelvis
Active member
I've heard that P. maculosus (not a dwarf, but still an angel) are bred for the food market in Asia. Some of the juveniles make their way into the hobby--I've seen them offered online on in a while.
Captive raised would be if someone hatched eggs and raised the fish. Captive bred would be if the parents were spawned in captivity and then the fish were raised in captivity. Martin Moe captive raised angels way back when, but didn't spawn the adults just strip spawned the wild fish.
People are raising angels in Taiwan for food. Also many scientific institutions have been trying to raise flame angels. And yes they raised a single personatus at the Waikiki aquarium.
People are raising angels in Taiwan for food. Also many scientific institutions have been trying to raise flame angels. And yes they raised a single personatus at the Waikiki aquarium.
