black ray gobies.

Any updates so far?

What's the hatching size of the larvae? The mouth size of the larvae?

nothing yet. i lost the last batch again. haven't had any other spawns since that i've discovered. the parents have been out together for a few days. usually signifying the end of one cycle and the start of the next. i've been diligent with observing at night and early mornings, although work has my mind off of it. i've been very thankful to come home and not find any larvae or zoae clouding up the vase. i am expecting crab zoae soon.
i still have a couple of crab zoae at twenty one days. they're in a container with a few shrimp zoa. i'm waiting for megalops stage.
i'll be adding to that thread when i can.

as far as gobi larvae size, i'd say a couple of millimeteres long and their mouth size i'm not sure of. i've got video of them gasping under the scope.

here's a pic of one 2 hph and few different euplotes swimming beside it for scale.
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hopefully i'll add to this thread soon.
 
hello folks.... just an update.... clutch number whatever happened today.
i came home and saw a few. they're recognizable from across the room now. they were pretty much gone when i got home, but i managed to snag a dozen or so.
the female gobie will eat her young now. but i don't think she ate most of them.
believe it or not, i have a mysid problem. i think they feasted on most of the larvae.
the bloody mysids have depleted my copepod population in the dv. i've been trying to keep up with pod production for the dv, but the mysids eat them all. i've sucked a few babies out, but the adults are far too fast. the only predator of the mysids are the gobies. and they sleep in their tunnels at night, when the mysids are out eating everything. on the positive side, i'm starting a mysid culture of sorts...just what i needed to get into, mysid culture. as if i'm not spending enough time on four gallons of saltwater.
i'll be keeping the gobie larvae in with the crab zoa. the last of the last batch of crab zoa disappeared yesterday. 24 days without reaching megalops. i'll have more about that in the pom pom crab thread i have. although the new batch of crab zoa is only a few days old, i'm not worried about the crab zoa eating the fish larvae. i'll be watching to see what eats what to be honest. there were still a few shrimp zoa in there as well, so i'll have to watch for them. they are definitely eating rotifers. i don't think the fish larvae will be much of a challenge for them to catch and eat. i'm running out of rearing space fast.
i've got lots of phyto on the go in a separate spot and have started bottling harp copepods. rotifers have infested my calanoid cultures and the calanoid copedods are crashing.
i've got to fix that fast. on the plus side, my euplotes cultures are stable and sustainable.
i've been considering staying away from this thread until i start getting results from the gobie larvae rearing that i've been consistently failing at.

anyways folks, it's beer time....
 
crab to 24 days that seems promising. Don't stay away people can learn even from failures. Keep us updated on what you are trying and when it fails why you perceive it failed. I know I'm following with great interest as I hope to do yasha's soon. I have know way of telling if they have laid eggs though because I can't see in their tubes. I also haven't seen Mrs. yasha get fat yet so I'm waiting....
 
crab to 24 days that seems promising. Don't stay away people can learn even from failures. Keep us updated on what you are trying and when it fails why you perceive it failed. I know I'm following with great interest as I hope to do yasha's soon. I have know way of telling if they have laid eggs though because I can't see in their tubes. I also haven't seen Mrs. yasha get fat yet so I'm waiting....

yashas... i wanna try them. you gotta start a yasha thread as soon as you get something. i'm giving some serious thought to constructing something that i can put a webcam underneath. i really wanna get their mating on video.
i've definitely got an update for you.
 
i think todays clutch is sixteen.... ah. sweet sixteen. something promising numerologically..and with all those starry alignments, lord xenu , i ask for your blessings... i think. actually i'm just making things up.
sorry if i offended anyone.

the reason for the sillyness, is that i just had another beer and finished tallying the count of gobie larvae that took me the better part of a great day off planned kicking samurai butt in a good long total war game. i just finished loading my first great battle, and the light flicked on for the dv. i already gave it the flashlight when i woke up. ( i flashlight before i go to bed and when i wake up. ) there was nothing when i glanced over at lights on. the battle on the screen started and my cannons were making short work of their archers. i was winning the assault. but then i neglected to see the sabre cavalry flank my riflemen, and thusly, kill my five star general. so i was a bit peeved and decided to get up and check out the vase. one glance at it and it looks like a snow globe. glittery baby gobies everywhere. no female in sight.
so i quickly quit tw shogun2, and got to work harvesting gobie larvae.

after my last go around a couple of weeks ago, i cleaned out the mulm and scrubbed the algae out of r1, r2 and r3. the crab zoa only made it a few days. the gobies the same. i blame it on the low temps we've had here in southern ontario. i keep everything at room temp, about 76'. it got cooler than that. there was one shrimp zoa left so i just put it in the dv.
i've been catching mysids that have started to overrun my display. they were stocked in the rearing containers, 1,2,and 3. i've learned that keeping the containers completely clean and new is not a good idea. so these seasoned containers come in handy. as in today. i promptly placed the mysids in the 2.6 rv that i've got setup somewhere else with my phyto grow op. there's about a dozen or so of the little buggers. i did catch the female gobie hunting mysids in the dv. just the ones that zipped past her tunnel opening. she's too lazy to chase them any further than two inches. she's really fat. she's been eating the shrimp pellets as well.

so i collected six litres of gobie larvae over the course of the afternoon.
i decided that i'd set up a spread sheet of the different cultures and rearing containers that i was gonna use. i'll post the result of this as i go. with my luck in this endevour, it'll be over before it began.......

this is the result of ten hours worth of work.
the middle shelf has seven one litre containers, each containing between twenty and thirty gobie larvae. either nanno or tetraselmis, dv water, passed through a 56 seive, and five of them only have air bubbles. about one bubble per second. the tall cylinder r-08, is two litre and nocc'd up with tetraselmis. it has air about one per second and fifty gobie larvae. all phyto cultures are seven days from ferts. i avoided using duna other than any stray from rotifer feeds.


stonogobiops%20nematodes%20rearing%20setup%20july%204%202015%202.jpg


(i've gotta coninue this....)
 
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the other containers on the right, another glass cylinder, a jar and a two litre pop bottle, all contain my floundering calanoid copepods. i have a bugger of a time keeping them. they get contaiminated with rotifers and then that's it.
microscopes come in handy if you're gonna be mucking about with these little things.
stonogobiops%20nematodes%20rearing%20setup%20july%204%202015%204.jpg

r2 sits' precariously on top of the one litre containers. there about fifty odd gobie larvae in there. same goes for r1 and r3 on the bottom shelf.
the white opaque container (r-11) houses a dense harp copepod population and lots of ciliates that feed on the husks of artemia cysts. i put forty larvae in there.
i even put twenty five in the rv. i doubt they'll make it with the mysids.

so the grand total for the the count is 480 gobie larvae.

this is definitely the largest clutch to date.

i took lots of pictures.
this a larvae, about 8 hph. that's an adult rotifer out of focus underneath it. i've been culturing rotifers on phyto only to get smaller animals. they even look more nutritious. i've watched the gobie larvae lunge at the rotifers, but don't see them eat them.

stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2051.png

stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2050.png


notice how this one has no pectoral fins, just nubs, while others have developed pecs.
stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2042.png

stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2034.png

stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2035.png

stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2032.png
 
this rotifer for example could easily fit into the mouth of a goby larvae.

stonogobiops%20larvae%2012hph%2026.png

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i'm going to be keeping track of what works here.
one problem i see is that four out the seven litre containers weren't seasoned. i have a habit of keeping containers of old tw, i used the litre containers for holding. so i've taken note of that. i really feel that that biofilm that grows around the surfaces is vital to success here.
as for feeding, i'm using the rotifers and ciliates. i'm measuring the feeds for the one litre containers, (r-01 to r-07). the other rearing containers are getting a bit of everything. i'm not sure about the larvae eating the phyto. but it does feed the other planktons, so i feel it is vital. 'clean' water seems to kill the little things.
i'll try and do a daily scoping of the successful rearing containers, if there are any.
 
that's for sure kiz.
i've still got lots of larvae left. they're doing fine. i think. i gave pretty much all of them a feed of ciliate mix. i have seen hunting behaviour towards euplotes under the scope. so i'm fairly confident that euplotes is on the menu. i've spent a lot of time with these lil fellers under the scope.
i've given euglenia only to one of the rearing containers. it had a mix of smaller ciliates in it and had a slight sulphur smell. i dosed about 20 per ml, 20 mils. in 750 mls, with 20 larvae in it. topped off with display tw. gonna see if i can get some resuts that way.

some interesting behaviour observations. larvae without a decent water movement seem to lie in wait. those that are in a constant motion 'go with the flow' and seem to exhibit hunting behaviour more. those larvae with tetraselmis dominant (or dense) phyto seem to be more active. only three containers are nanno only containers.

ichthyogeek asked about mouth size and prey size in a thread. i notice that gobie larvae mouths are not that small in comparison to their body size. they look kinda big actually.
and considering what their mouths are like when they're adults...
i think visual stimulation is key to success here. larger euplotes seemed to get a response under the microscope.
i made a slide that holds five drops. it makes doing counts easier. i find i spend most of my time counting little animals per mil. but it makes taking good pictures harder.

here's a few pics.
18 hph.. they still have their oil drops. i think it explains the four day life span.

s-n%2018hph%207.png

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s-n%2018hph%202.png

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i'll get some more pics tomorrow.
i've been doing the spreadsheet on what gets what and such. i don't own a test kit, so water params aren't measured. i worry about temp and sg the most. and the lil things that live in the water. some of them have some great tolerances and can give misleading indications. i've really gotta getta test kit.
i've learned to drip a few mils of fw. to top off. straight water changes were still not dealing with the sg increase. i was using fw nanno for top off, but decided against it this time for the density and control issues.

everything's at about 75' f.

here's hoping i keep posting.
 
hopeful thinking on my part, but it doesn't hurt to ask, and i'm glad i did.
i need help and i'll take any i can get.
how small are the oceanops larvae? what were their first foods?
i'm having a bugger of a time finding the right foods. the last batch of babies i had lasted about four days. i think my problem on the last batch was when i finally turned the lights out for a night, woke up the next morning and they were all gone.
i'm really interested in your effort. could you give me some details on how you went about it?

Sorry to be so late in replying. I so rarely come to RC.

Oceanops larvae are large enough to take rotifers, but they appreciate copepods as well. I am also working with damsels and gobies with smaller larvae(yellow watchman ) and ruby red dragonets. The damsels and dragonets hatch as prolarvae without eyes or mouths, so they are really a challenge. I use 17 gallon black round plastic tubs for gobies and difficult species, filled to 5-10 gallons with saltwater. I haven't been successful yet with any goby except oceanops.

I think your approach is unique with the glass vases and plastic containers, and their small sizes could result in some interesting data, since you could have replicates and statistics to back up your work. I realize you are in the observation stages right now, trying to find some combination that works. Love it that you are culturing ciliates as well as copepods, and your pix and videos are delightful and informative. That display tank is a knock out! You are raising things in there that are difficult in larger system, yet seem to thrive in your hands. I definitely think you are on the right track with your goby raising efforts. :spin3:
 
well thank you for the support. i appreciate it.
i'm certainly interested in learning about other species, and what others have experienced. i fear the oncoming wipeout that has been mostly my experience with black rays.
i'll be scoping the containers today and posting pics later on. that's the one thing that i feel is helpful. lots of pictures.
thanks once again anna.
gogo7
 
so i have to report the last of the gobie larvae disappeared tonight.
i did learn a few things. and some observations have given me new insight into the directions i'm going to take with the next batch.
immediate observation was the negative affect the nannochloropsis had on them.
R-01, R-04 and R-06 all had nanno in them only. about 4,000,000 cell count. maybe less. they were gone at thirty odd hph. 1 and 4 were seasoned, 6 being new.

all the others were given tetraselmis to swim in. in varying levels from half million cell count to 1.3 million. there were stragglers in all of them. they all seemed to die at a steady rate.

r-1,r-2 and r-3 had the greatest amount of hangerons. R-09 is a 1.5 litre container of old tw and contains the cyst husks of artemia. i was surprised at how this stabilized container of 'mud' and mulm maintained the next highest number and most alert of gobie larvae. it's also teeming with harp copepods.
but the gobies don't eat. they exhibit hunting behaviour, but they don't fill up. their oil bubble gets smaller and smaller and then they die.

this is a larvae 66 hph.

vlcsnap-2015-07-07-21h17m30s142.png


looks like it's starving. it's mouth has a gape.

this one still has some of its oil droplet left.

vlcsnap-2015-07-07-21h22m29s27.png
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so i'll keep the containers going as if there were animals in there until i can repeat the experiment.
i hope the vase gives me a break for a while. these ongoing failures are bloody depressing
 
Hmm..how's the turbulence in those cups? Copepod nauplii are very good at detecting predators, similar to how flies always know when to move when we're about to swat them. By making the water more turbulent, you might be able to let the goby larvae to eat. It takes a long time for fish to start getting their hunting behavior right (I think 3 days for some).

I think I read that Tetraselmis had antibacterial properties in it. Do you think it might be that your tubs had some sort of bacteria that ended up killing the larvae? Or maybe that the larvae were eating the Tet before dying?

I don't know if you can, but maybe try culturing Dinoflagellates, or a similar food maybe? I think I read that fisheries culture shad larvae (or a similar pelagic zooplanktivore) using Red Tide dinoflagellates...

I'm probably being bothersome at this point, but would you please tell me the mouth size of that larvae?
 
Hmm..how's the turbulence in those cups? Copepod nauplii are very good at detecting predators, similar to how flies always know when to move when we're about to swat them. By making the water more turbulent, you might be able to let the goby larvae to eat. It takes a long time for fish to start getting their hunting behavior right (I think 3 days for some).

I think I read that Tetraselmis had antibacterial properties in it. Do you think it might be that your tubs had some sort of bacteria that ended up killing the larvae? Or maybe that the larvae were eating the Tet before dying?

I don't know if you can, but maybe try culturing Dinoflagellates, or a similar food maybe? I think I read that fisheries culture shad larvae (or a similar pelagic zooplanktivore) using Red Tide dinoflagellates...

I'm probably being bothersome at this point, but would you please tell me the mouth size of that larvae?

sorry ichy. it's been bugging me too. i've been trying to get hold of some scope slides that actually have measurements on them so i can measure what the heck i'm looking at. i'd love to give you a actual measurement, but i can't figure it out at the moment.

i agree with you on the turbidity. i think the tet. density is key. i've already got some dense pod cultures going on. so i'm going to make some really zooplankton dense water for a few of them the next time round. i'm also going to try really dense rotifer rearing water as well. i agree with you on the eyesight thing. they seem to not notice stuff unless it zips passed them. then it's too late. they've got large enough mouths to handle my phyto fed L type rotifers, i think. i keep the yeastfed ones out of the rearing containers. they're too fat.
dino are my next thing. i was reading about them as invert zoa food.
i think having 'seasoned' containers to rear is the only way to survival. i could see the bacterial bloom in one of the containers.
i'm letting all the containers remain until next weeks clutch. let them cycle.
i'm gonna get this right if it takes me a lifetime. and with a little help from some friends.
 
I wish I could pack some hope up and send it to you. Then you could pack some elbow grease and umph and send it to me. I always read that Nanno isn't good for rearing but it is what I have the most of around here right now. It is good to see you have bore that out. I wonder if they had some of the oil droplet left why they starved? I wonder what the ammonia was in the cups. Did you do any water changes? Did you top off with fresh water to account for evaporation? Just asking as the starvation seems a bit short. I can't wait til your next batch.
 
hey thanks kiz. i appreciate it. it's been a long few weeks at wrk. maintaining this on top of wrk and life, get's a bit much. i remember someone once surrendering and saying ' i used to breed stuff to feed to stuff that i was breeding to feed to the other stuff that i was breeding to feed to other stuff that i was breeding........' i feel that guys pain.
yeah, i do water changes, phyto changes. some i controlled on this batch. i 'flushed' onw, (gently putting the whole lot in the 56 sieve, then fresh sw, then new phyto) fw top offs of about ten mils daily for everything. i've been stabilizing the sg in all my plankton cultures. nothing above 025. i don't use phyto before day seven. i dilute the phyto when i drip in. i felt pretty good about this batch (as good as i could) but still expected failure.
the population crash was almost exacting. i expected it and it happened. i feel like i wanna give up.
the problem with that is that i can't walk away from this. i've commited to doing this.
the display vase with a breeding pistol gobie setup was a dream i fulfilled.

so i need your help. i'm looking for suggestions. what do you think i should do ( besides buy some test kits)?

....everybody....what would you do with a dozen or so newly hatched stonogobiops nematodes larvae? right now. seriously. it's friday 9pm est . i'm taking my wife to the pub for a few pints. when we get back, in a coupla hours, i'm taking your suggestions as to what to do with this seventeenth batch i caught when i got home from wrk. i only managed to snag about a dozen or so.
you guys know what i've got to work with. no large tanks though. i'm a pico guy. just containers and vases. i'm completely open to suggestion.
i can scratch build just about anything in a coupla hours, so i'm open to engineering and plumbing stuff. i only use air.
so please, i'd love some great input. i don't think i can do it on my own anymore.
 
I mentioned this in Kizanne's thread, but maybe try a kreisel? I read that clownfish larvae do better (higher survival rates etc.) when put in them, and the way that they're designed, food seems to always be everywhere. Look at FusedJaws' kreisel set up for ideas. Petsmart has tiny flat sided plastic bowls that might work.

Fill'em up with tetraselmis. Add ciliates, S and L type rotifers, and pretty much anything else you can find that looks small enough to fit in the larvae's mouths. Try your best to examine which foods are being eaten, and fill those up as needed. And if you have an urchin or clams, see what you can do about getting zoea/veligers out of them.
 
Well I would put them in a vase with tetra, iso any other motile algae and copepods especially female with eggs. No Nanno. Day 1. I'd leave the light on 24/7 and let the algae act as the filter.

Day 2 I'd add a small amount of the smallest rotifer you have. If needed more tetra, t-iso. I'd start with a small amount so that it takes it a day or two to become a problem. I'd top off the tetra and t-iso as needed.

by day 4 or 5 you rotifers should start to become too thick. I'd draw 1/4 to 1/2 of the water out of the center strain with a 50 micron filter and put then a 10 micron. I would make sure not to get any larva in this process by going slow and using a dropper or such. Anything bigger than 10 and less then 50 would go back in with some fresh saltwater. I'd keep topping off the copepods as needed. (It would be ideal if you have pelagic pods like parvo's).

I'd keep this up topping off tetra, iso and straining out rots until I have no larva or until they are ready to graduate to shrimp.

Or I'd do the same thing with copepods only.

I might add a few ciliate or euplotes but not that many just enough to give a variety of nutrition.
 
well, here we go again.... number eighteen arrived today.
came home to a snow globe.
i pulled a few hundred out. there's still a few hundred in there.
i'll do a count later. maybe some scoping, but it's been a hard week, i really need to hit the pub.
i've put them into the same containers that i've emptied and replaced with dv water and the gobie fry. i'm not adding anything at the moment.

kiz and ichy.... sorry i haven't replied.
since i only had the single dozen last batch, i kept them in a one litre, between seven fifty and eight hundred mils. i did a count on day two and had the rotis at about twenty per mil, euplotes double that and the copepods i actually counted at approx one thousand harp nauplii for the whole container. i've been culturing harps and experimenting, so i had many young pods. there was a single gobie larvae that made it to day five, then it disappeared.

check that count left in the dv. since i've started typing this the number has dropped dramatically. to a coupleof dozen.....!
the female is eating her young. the corals are having a feast as well. my pteragorgia looks like twinkling lights.

my eyes are getting wonky. i need a beer. and....
i'll update you guys later tonight.
thanks kiz and ichy. i wish we all lived closer to each other.
i'd send you some gobie larvae. we could figure this out amongst ourselves.
 
Gogo, I wish you luck. But....I'll have to pass on living close to you, Canada is too cold for me! You could move to the US, and have Algagen pods a plenty though...Kiz and I live relatively close together (Arkansas, and Tennesee, it's like a day's car drive at most). Come to the South, we have fried chicken :p .

I was rereading an old thread, and saw something about adding iodine daily to replicate sea concentrations of iodine. Perhaps something to consider? What's your salt mix by the way? Trace element levels?

Or...maybe the eggs aren't healthy in some way? Maybe try evaluating the nutrition you're giving the fish again to see if there is something you're missing?

Hmm...let's take this from the bottom, shall we? Starting with adult nutrition, moving to eggs, and finally larvae(since this is the end stage)?

Oh...and I'll have to decline on the larvae. As an incoming freshman in college, I won't have enough time to balance raising live foods and college life together. I'm going to try and get a pair before the end of this summer, leave for college, and start my own project the summer before junior or senior year probably...
 
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