brute rubbermaid trash bin

Keep in mind RO/DI isn't potable water and you will notice a little leach from the brute containers with "pure" water stored in them.

Since most salt mixes are light in calcium and since you need to normally add calcium to the tank also, what you can do is toss a little calcium into the RO/DI water so it isn't "ION HUNGRY" anymore and this pretty much stops any type of leaching.

Carlo
 
good idea cayars!! Although I use the RO/DI water for making coffee too :)

I did notice that some leaked RO/DI water actually took the paint off of the concrete floor in the basement!! :lol:
 
cayars.... you keep posting that RO/DI is not potable. That simply is not true. You can most certainly drink RO/DI water.

There is some debate about it leaching electrolytes and minerals from your body. In large quantities, this could be the case, but in large quantities, water of any kind can kill you.

The nonsense about needing to get minerals from our water is urban legend. The water leaching your body dry is urban legen. Even the dopes at the WHO (World Health Organization) don't seem to get it right. They even warn people not to use deionized water to prepare food and drink. Heh? As soon as you mix it with anything it is no longer deionized. Shows you how much you should trust the morons at the WHO.

Our diets are chock full of magnitudes more minerals than we need to survive. Anybody who consumes food on a regular basis will replinish any minerals that the water would absorb.

Stuck in the desert? RO/DI would not be the best idea for you to drink. Then again Ice Tea would kill you too.
 
Bean, but, ion hungry DI water can draw things out that standard mineralized tap water would not. not really out of your body so much...but things like softening the paint on my floor, and possibly drawing plasticizers out of certain storage containers.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10605647#post10605647 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
cayars.... you keep posting that RO/DI is not potable. That simply is not true. You can most certainly drink RO/DI water.

There is some debate about it leaching electrolytes and minerals from your body. In large quantities, this could be the case, but in large quantities, water of any kind can kill you.

The nonsense about needing to get minerals from our water is urban legend. The water leaching your body dry is urban legen. Even the dopes at the WHO (World Health Organization) don't seem to get it right. They even warn people not to use deionized water to prepare food and drink. Heh? As soon as you mix it with anything it is no longer deionized. Shows you how much you should trust the morons at the WHO.

Our diets are chock full of magnitudes more minerals than we need to survive. Anybody who consumes food on a regular basis will replinish any minerals that the water would absorb.

Stuck in the desert? RO/DI would not be the best idea for you to drink. Then again Ice Tea would kill you too.

I never said you couldn't drink it or use it for whatever. I have only said RO/DI water is NOT POTABLE. Nothing more or less.

This is 100% accurate as RO/DI is no where near potable water since the whole objective of a good RO/DI system is to get you "pure water".

I don't remember the exact specs but water needs to meet certain specs like having x amount of minerals, certain pH, etc to be considered potable.

Regardless adding a little Ca to the stored RO/DI water does do the trick.

For what it's worth I have a bypass before my DI stages so I can get RO water which I use for drinking & coffee etc around the house. I don't use DI water for that purpose.

Carlo

BTW, the amount of leach if any from Brute containers is pretty small and many won't even notice it unless you store your water for a week or so. With other containers it's more noticeable and the Ca trick will help a lot more.
 
But, it is most certainly POTABLE.

The definition of POTABLE is: Suitable for drinking.

It may not meet some regulatory or WHO criteria for nutrition, but that does not mean it is not safe to drink. Coca Cola does not meat the definition of POTABLE WATER either :)
 
This is too funny! :) RO/DI water not potable? Not the best to drink if your stuck in the desert? Only in America.............
 
It started out as potable water but became "pure".

Potable water is the quality of the water. While most times the problem is too much stuff in the water that needs to be removed to become potable it can work the other way to where the water is to pure and needs to be reconstituted to become potable.

BeanAnimal that is a layman's definition but either way RO/DI water is not really safe for drinking and therefore not potable. :)
Just because some people drink it does not mean it should be drank. I could drink from my local stream but that doesn't mean it's safe or potable either.

Many of the cheap RO/DI systems reefers have will create potable water because they don't work that well. But if you have a good unit/filters/membranes/resins then you will get ultra pure water and it won't be potable.

Actually products sold in the US that meet criteria for holding "potable" water meet the criteria of the USEPA. The USEPA does not consider ultra pure water as potable. Neither does ANSI/NSF Potable Water & FDA Bottled Water Quality Standards.

While I don't want to argue the point since I know the differences an RO/DI setup isn't the ideal filtration if the intent is for drinking. Cold Sterile Filtrate system is a much better choice as it removes pesticides, volatile organic chemicals, complexed phosphates and dangerous bacteria. Most RO/DI units do not reject VOC's, low levels of heavy metals, Organic Carbons, Pesticides/Insecticides, Poly and complex Phosphates, Water Conditioning Polymers. Cold Sterile Filration doesn't remove calcium, magnesium divalent cations nor strip the water's alkaline reserve which is important to be considered potable.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater

Here's something I just found:
Ultra pure water is the perfect solvent. Presently many reef tank owners use R/O [nanofiltration], Ion-exchange resins and combinations of R/O + mixed bed resins or split bed resins + mixed bed resins producing high quality water [conductivity: 1.0µ/S-0.243µ/S] which requires the addition of buffers and minerals supplements before it can be used during replacement water changes. If this water is to be used as replacement for evaporation many add calcium, magnesium, iodide, selenium, and trace elements solutions. However, the big problem for reef tanks is the hobbyists lack of knowledge of high quality water's unique solvent effects. First, high quality, water should have conductivity measured via gold flow cell, on an instrument capable of reading to 0.056µ/S, calibrated by a prepared 25µ/S standard solution. Second, all ultra pure water must be piped sealed through teflon or polypropylene tubing/pipe into a sealed polypropylene storage container. All pipes and storage tanks must be flushed with ultra-pure rated water prior to first usage. If any air contact is made this highly reactive water will be turned into literally waste water. For example: 1.0-2.43 µ/S water will absorb plastizers, VOCs, heavy metals out of most plastics and then absorb any room's undesirable gasses CO, CO2, NH3, O3, N2, VOC's which then produces [5-100µ/S] gas and impurity saturated water. This water will contain: vinyl chloride monomer, epoxides, cyanides, thiocyanides, heavy metals, volatile amines, trihalomethanes, other volatile organic chemicals + CO2 Gas, NH3 Gas & other atmospheric gasseous contaminates. This contaminated water is then dosed with calcium, strontium, selenium, iodide and assorted trace elements before addition to the reef tank. This R/O or D.I. water may also contain heterotrophic bacteria or endotoxins that grew in the filter media. Ref.: Heterotrophic menace: fact or fiction?, Water Technology, Feb. 1999.

BTW for those drinking DI water:
There are two kinds of DI filter cartridges.
The transparent color-change resins are not suitable for drinking water.
Non-colorchange resins are suitable for drinking water.
I myself wouldn't drink DI water.

Carlo
 
Yes, water is an excellent solvent and will have the effect of dilluting water-soluble elements that it comes into contact with. Does this mean that the effect is meaningful and relevant to us? Perhaps in some circumstances, but there is an abundance of direct, observable evidence that the use of BRUTE trashcans and PVC pipe in reef aquariums is not harmful (i.e. everyone who uses them and have successful reef aquariums) and absolutely none that I am aware of from anyone who says that it is dangerous.

You also inhaled cyanide the last time that you took a breath. It's naturally occuring element of our atmosphere. It's the dose that makes the poison.

As too the whole "potable" water thing... according to Encarta potable means "suitable for drinking because it contains no harmful elements." The risk of high purity water is that it can be easily colonized by ambient bacteria and make you sick. Yes, pure water will absorb slighty ions from your body then less pure water but the effect is insufficient to be harmful in any practical quantities. The effect is most likely even somewhat beneficial to your average American since sodium deficiencies are relatively uncommon in our society.
 
Guys I'm not debating if it should be drank or not. I myself use RO water but not DI. Either way it doesn't matter.

The only point I was trying to make originally is that the water you get from a good working RO/DI unit is ION HUNGRY (regardless if you want to call it potable or not).

The common Brute trashcans and most other "tanks" we use are not designed to hold DI water. You can get verification from Rubbermaid on this yourself if you want to. Pure DI water should only be held in polypropylene or other DI safe materials if you can't have the material leach into the water.

The brute can's do leach in pure DI water. If you have a good meter it's pretty easy to test this yourself. Let the water site for a week and go back and check the TDS readings. Break out your phosphate meters and check that too. I'll bet you'll be surprised.

My original suggestion if anyone cares to go back and read it is that adding some calcium to the RO/DI storage water will in fact help a lot because the water will no longer be ION HUNGRY and won't absorb from it's container.

Wryknow, you can find all kinds of definitions of what's considered potable. Some use "safe" for consumption, some use "suitable". The EPA and other government agencies (many countries) do not consider DI water safe to drink because it has been stripped of ions. So that would be not suitable also. I'd think most doctors and chemists would probably agree because of electrolyte inbalances in the body. You can do a search of google if DI water is safe to drink and get tons of links from government org. doctors, universities, etc that all pretty much say the same thing. It's not good to drink. I'm not aware of any authority that says DI water is SAFE or SUITABLE to drink. Forgetting about the EPA itself the overwelming response of no would indicate it's not potable (safe/suitable to drink). I'm not debating if you can or can't drink it. I'm just the messenger.

My point was that if you are going to quote a container being suitable to store "potable" water in it then you also need to know what "potable" means from the same people who approve the certification. For our purposes having "potable" cert doesn't mean much.

Just for the record I never knew this until a few years ago when talking to Randy. He's the one who told me RO/DI water is not considered potable. I had the same reaction as most here did/do and thought he was crazy but after some reading found he was correct.

Carlo
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10610688#post10610688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Wryknow
As too the whole "potable" water thing... according to Encarta potable means "suitable for drinking because it contains no harmful elements." The risk of high purity water is that it can be easily colonized by ambient bacteria and make you sick. Yes, pure water will absorb slighty ions from your body then less pure water but the effect is insufficient to be harmful in any practical quantities. The effect is most likely even somewhat beneficial to your average American since sodium deficiencies are relatively uncommon in our society.

Deionized water is exactly that - water that has essentially been stripped of all of its ions. Water likes to be balanced in its natural state, however, and this means that it adds ions to itself to achieve that goal. Therefore, DI water grabs ions from everything it touches that can be dissolved or absorbed. It is about a close as you can get to a Universal Solvent.

Its hazardous to you to ingest because of what is called osmotic shock. Your body on a cellular level is balanced to a degree by the amount of salt that your cells have in them. This salt allows electrical signals to travel through your nervous system, creates reactions in your muscles that make them move, and also keep most simple bacteria from killing you because they cannot live in a high salinity environment.

Back to osmotic shock - your cellular walls allow the free passage of water and salt through them. A process called osmosis means that the concentration of salts try to acheive equilibrium by moving to establish similar concentrations through your whole body. If you drink DI water, however, the absence of salt in it makes this movement occur VERY fast, as the body starts to try to reach equilibrium. Unfortunately, the salt movement is so fast and has so much force behind it that the cell walls basically explode from the shock, which of course kills the cells. Kill to many and you can get internal bleeding and all kinds of nasty stuff like that.

Distilled water is not nearly as agressive as deionized, and it is essentially balanced. It still has very little ions in it, but it is less aggressive than DI and while I would not recommend drinking it either, is less likely to harm you.

Carlo

PS I didn't write this but klept it off a site. I'm sure you guys will have fun with this. I found a couple parts not telling the whole story. Wonder if anyone picks it up too? :)
 
Again, it's the dose that makes the poison. Could drinking 5 gallons of DI water in 15 minutes be harmful to you? Possibly. Is drinking a 16 oz glass of DI water harmful to you. In my opinion and practical experience, no. I haven't seen a toxicology report that showed drinking DI water was the cause of death of anyone yet. Feel free to give it a try yourself.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10590524#post10590524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sea Polar
Will the smaller green ones work too?

I just bought two of them today.

f3204f83-fbd8-447b-b79a-4a519833ac27_400.jpg

Make sure it's a brute. I have used the roughneck containers in the past, and each one has developed a crack and leaked.

If you hold it upside down and look through it at the sun or some other bright light, you will see that they are quite thin.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10610153#post10610153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
It started out as potable water but became "pure".

Potable water is the quality of the water. While most times the problem is too much stuff in the water that needs to be removed to become potable it can work the other way to where the water is to pure and needs to be reconstituted to become potable.
I think you need to get the dictionary back out my friend. It would appear that your definition of "POTABLE" is being confused with standards for water distribiution.

BeanAnimal that is a layman's definition but either way RO/DI water is not really safe for drinking and therefore not potable. :)
It is most certainly safe for drinking. I am not sure where you get your information, but you way off base with both your definitions and reasoning.


Just because some people drink it does not mean it should be drank. I could drink from my local stream but that doesn't mean it's safe or potable either.
Um if you can drink from the stream and not get sick, the water is potable. Again, your definition is WAY off.

Many of the cheap RO/DI systems reefers have will create potable water because they don't work that well. But if you have a good unit/filters/membranes/resins then you will get ultra pure water and it won't be potable.
No sir, pure RO/DI water is drinkable. With each passing paragraph it becomes more appearant that you are your not well informed with regard to this subject as it pertains to human safety.

Actually products sold in the US that meet criteria for holding "potable" water meet the criteria of the USEPA. The USEPA does not consider ultra pure water as potable. Neither does ANSI/NSF Potable Water & FDA Bottled Water Quality Standards.
Nor would they consider Coca Cola, Seltzer water, flavored water, ice tea, or anything else. You are confusing the standards for water with what is fit for human consumption.

While I don't want to argue the point since I know the differences an RO/DI setup isn't the ideal filtration if the intent is for drinking.
You don't appear to know the differences. You are confusing drinking water standards with reality. You may not want to argue, but you have certainly made some very bold statements.
Cold Sterile Filtrate system is a much better choice as it removes pesticides, volatile organic chemicals, complexed phosphates and dangerous bacteria. Most RO/DI units do not reject VOC's, low levels of heavy metals, Organic Carbons, Pesticides/Insecticides, Poly and complex Phosphates, Water Conditioning Polymers. Cold Sterile Filration doesn't remove calcium, magnesium divalent cations nor strip the water's alkaline reserve which is important to be considered potable.
Ohh give me a break. You have now stepped off the deep end of this one. Did you pull that from the KS website?


As for the quoted text.... Do you really want me to respond? If the perfect solvent touches the air it is waste water huh? Again, give me a break. Just becuase you find it on the internet does not mean it is true.
 
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It would seem no matter what information is given you are stuck in the thought process that DI water is "safe" to drink and therefore is potable regardless of what "experts" in the field say about the matter.

I think you proved your point about considering drinking stream water as being potable since you didn't get sick from it.

BTW, in the example above where you would consider the water potable (from the stream). What if a month/year down the road I was overcome with a parasite that had been in that water? Would it not be considered potable at that point as it was obviously unsafe to drink?

You take "potable" as being "if I didn't get sick it's potable". Just because you didn't get sick doesn't mean it was safe or suitable.

There are many simple definitions as I pointed out previously what "potable" means but most use either "safe" or "suitable" in the definition. IMHO you are then thinking since it's "pure" it's "suitable" when experts say it's not. I'm not a medical doctor so I can't myself say, but every site I've found from the medical field dealing with drinking DI water says it's not good for you to drink long term. That to me says it's not "suitable" or "safe" and therefore not "potable". <-- by simple definition.

As I previously said the EPA has clear guidelines for what it considers "potable" water and DI doesn't make the cut. Distilled water is considered potable. No the two aren't the same but are close in many respects and different in others.

Again, it goes back to the EPA (more or less) guidelines in this country to say what is considered "potable" and what is not from a PRODUCT standpoint. I use the word PRODUCT strongly here so there is no argument. If the product we store our "pure" water in says it's ok to store potable water in then logic would say we are safe if our water also matches the guidelines. Our water does not.

Ever look at sites that make large holding tanks. They will usually have tanks for "potable" water and special tanks for non-potable water like RO/DI water. Look one up and give them a call and argue the point with them that you can use a "potable" container for your RO/DI water. Most will clearly tell you the product can't be used in that environment. Rubbermaid will tell you this about there brute trash cans too. Many of us still use them for DI storage anyway but then have creeping TDS in the container over time. Remember how this all started where I mentioned throwing in a little Ca so the water wasn't ion hungry and would become more potable?

While you may take the dictionary definition and mangle it to mean "if I didn't get sick drinking it then it's potable" the medical & scientific fields don't see it that way and don't consider the water potable because it's not safe for long term drinking because of several issues.

btw, re-read the part about "waste water" in the context of what's written. When you need pure water and the DI water touches air it pulls in the Ions and should be considered waste water as it's no longer fit for use. I knew someone would pull it out of context.

Carlo

PS I'm done with the "debate" unless you want to bring in some scientific or medical literature that says it's potable or safe for long term drinking. I don't personally agree with your "interpretation" of "potable" (nor does the EPA, medical or scientific communities) so continuing to debate it is useless at this point.
 
It would seem no matter what information is given you are stuck in the thought process that DI water is "safe" to drink and therefore is potable regardless of what "experts" in the field say about the matter.
Not at all. The problem is the "experts" that are cited.

Lets make this simple. Your stomach has acids in it, and usually partly digested food. Your saliva has salts and other substances in it.

Swallow a gulp of DI water, what happens to it. Instantly it hits your saliva and your stomach. It is now NO LONGER DI water.

As I also mentioned, we as modern man, eat far more minerals than our bodies need. Anything that the DI water rips out of us is more than replinished.

What don't you get about that?

So if you ask an "expert" if a pure solvent can strip IONS from the body, then of course he will say yes. Those same "experts" will tell you that your cola and beer are far worse for you. Put it in context instead of taking it out of context... thats all.
 
I think you proved your point about considering drinking stream water as being potable since you didn't get sick from it.

BTW, in the example above where you would consider the water potable (from the stream). What if a month/year down the road I was overcome with a parasite that had been in that water? Would it not be considered potable at that point as it was obviously unsafe to drink?

Your all over the place man. Let me ask you again. Is BEER considered potable? Is Coca Cola considered POTABLE? Of course they are.

What happens down the road when they cause adverse health effects?

You simply DO NOT understand the definition of POTABLE. You are twisting the definition with water standards. You are interpreting the definition into something that it is NOT.
 
There are many simple definitions as I pointed out previously what "potable" means but most use either "safe" or "suitable" in the definition. IMHO you are then thinking since it's "pure" it's "suitable" when experts say it's not. I'm not a medical doctor so I can't myself say, but every site I've found from the medical field dealing with drinking DI water says it's not good for you to drink long term. That to me says it's not "suitable" or "safe" and therefore not "potable". <-- by simple definition

Once again. Is Coca Cola POTABLE? Is is safe for you to drink long term? Does your doctor and the other websites you found consider it safe long term? Of course not. I suppose Coca Cola is NOT POTABLE then.
 
As I previously said the EPA has clear guidelines for what it considers "potable" water and DI doesn't make the cut. Distilled water is considered potable. No the two aren't the same but are close in many respects and different in others.
Does Pellagrino sparkling water make the cut? No, of course not. Does your well water make the cut? No, of course not.

Once again Sir... You are trying to apply the definition of a water standard to something it was never meant to cover.

Again, it goes back to the EPA (more or less) guidelines in this country to say what is considered "potable" and what is not from a PRODUCT standpoint. I use the word PRODUCT strongly here so there is no argument. If the product we store our "pure" water in says it's ok to store potable water in then logic would say we are safe if our water also matches the guidelines. Our water does not.
With all due respect... I think logic left your arguement before it ever started.

You have posted numerous times that RO/DI water is NOT POTABLE and tried to support that claim, going as far as saying it is not safe to drink.

Your all wet.
 
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