Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System

[Drewcipher]

Ok, so most of the posts here have been by people with tanks in the 40-80 gallon range. Many people are saying that they would go CA reactor if they were at 300 gallons or more. jdieck has a reactor on a 225, and steve the plumb is going to go with 2 part on a 300.

I am finally about to setup my 225 gallon tank. Does anyone run either 2 part, or reactor, without also dosing kalk? If you have to run kalk, it seems that everyone says it is simply to keep pH up. Does anyone with a 200-300 gallon tank have to dose kalk to keep up with tank demand?

Our tank is to be dominated by LPS corals, and some clams. There will be a large number of small fish. Leopard wrasses and/or anthias will problably be the biggest fish.

I was assuming I would buy a reactor, but I rethinking my position, as I had never considered automating a 2 part.

Another thought for those who rely so heavily on the hospital pumps, have you researched how often a hospital replaces these pumps. It would be interesting to know that.

 

[medic29]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10083694#post10083694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rleechb
tank. I have a single peristaltic pump that runs a dual dripset; very efficient and easy to use. I wouldn't worry about the peristaltic malfunctioning and somehow putting more ca/alk into your tank either; it's used for IV dripping in hospitals.. malfunctioning in many cases would = death for a patient

I just started reading this thread a little bit ago and haven't gotten all the way through it but....

I just setup a Ca Reactor and stopped using my 2-part system. There are a couple of us here recently locally that have done this. I will list my experience here in a minute, but first I have to address an item listed above...

I wouldn't worry about the peristaltic malfunctioning and somehow putting more ca/alk into your tank either; it's used for IV dripping in hospitals..

Unfortunately you are in error in both parts. A peristaltic pump is NOT used for IV dripping in hospitals....and thus "malfunction" does not equal death. The only thing a peristaltic pump is used for is tube feedings. A malfunction would either cause the pt to not get any feedings or a bit too much and potentially vomit if way too much.

Now, not worrying about the peristaltic pump malfunctioning...the last several weeks of using my 2 part I could not figure out why my alk was low and why my Calcium was so high.... I ended up turning my dosing pump off to take it out of the equation. When I pulled my containers out I found my alk container was about 3/4 full and my Calcium container was basically empty. I was using a dual peristaltic tubing. I'm still not sure what happened and why it dosed so much. But, it is not a concern now that I have my reactor setup.

I had also noted a sediment build up appearing to come from or around where the alk dripped into the sump.

Now, when I first started dosing the 2 part it kept my system very stable and my Calc/Alk was solid for quite a while....then not. I have minimal experience with the reactor so far so I can't say much about it....yet.

Up front costs....well, reef dosing pumps are not cheap; somewhere between $150-200. I got my reactor for a little over $200. The tubing for the dosing pump runs around $15.00 and needs to be changed out every so often. I picked up my 20# CO2 bottle used for $20...not often to find a deal like that. I did pick up a 2nd 20# bottle for $50 for a back up.

Costs of the media for the reactor are cheaper than what I used to dose in 2-part. If you make your own 2-part you also have to add the other minute (essential) minerals; these are included in the 2-part you can buy. I don't know if it has been posted how much of what type/brand of minerals you are to add to the recipe so that it is in the same concentration as the home-made 2-part. That is why I went with the 2-part you buy....all I had to do was add water.

As I understand it....although I may be wrong...the media I use is basically broken up coral and it is dissolved by the CO2/water and thus these minerals, which are contained in the coral skeletons, are released just as the calcium and alk are and thus dosed into the tank as part of the effluent.

The reactor stuff I'm still learning, but I have years of experience with the "dosing" pumps, better known as feeding pumps in the medical profession.

 

[medic29]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10297831#post10297831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Drewcipher
Another thought for those who rely so heavily on the hospital pumps, have you researched how often a hospital replaces these pumps. It would be interesting to know that.

We do not have to replace our pumps very often. Having said that we just replace all of our feeding pumps this year, but the ones we had have been here for over a decade and these are the ones that are being modified (disabling the drip sensor) and sold as reef dosing pumps. Our new pumps are wonderful because they automate several of the things we do when someone is on tube feedings, but these features would be of no added benefit for a reef system.

 

[davidryder]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10297831#post10297831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Drewcipher
Ok, so most of the posts here have been by people with tanks in the 40-80 gallon range. Many people are saying that they would go CA reactor if they were at 300 gallons or more. jdieck has a reactor on a 225, and steve the plumb is going to go with 2 part on a 300.

I am finally about to setup my 225 gallon tank. Does anyone run either 2 part, or reactor, without also dosing kalk? If you have to run kalk, it seems that everyone says it is simply to keep pH up. Does anyone with a 200-300 gallon tank have to dose kalk to keep up with tank demand?

Our tank is to be dominated by LPS corals, and some clams. There will be a large number of small fish. Leopard wrasses and/or anthias will problably be the biggest fish.

I was assuming I would buy a reactor, but I rethinking my position, as I had never considered automating a 2 part.

Another thought for those who rely so heavily on the hospital pumps, have you researched how often a hospital replaces these pumps. It would be interesting to know that.

I'm in a similar situation, except with a smaller tank (90g, 130g volume). Right now I drip limewater. I also assumed that I would be buying a CaRx in the future but with all that I have read now I think I can say, due to the article below, that I will stick with limewater.

Comparing Ca & Alk Supplementation Schemes by Randy Holmes-Farley

A small air pump, controller by a float switch, pressurizes the jug and pushes water out. How much is added can be controlled by the amount of lime added and/or the rate of evaporation.

Increasing dissolution of lime in solution with vinegar

 

[Drewcipher]

Well, from that article it doesn't seem as though limewater would work for us, but we still seem to be in a quandry on reactor vs 2 part automated.

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10295418#post10295418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
In any case I agree that there are no micro nutrients from the dissolution, even if the media contain some many will not dissolve as the calcium carbonate part and will remain as sediment left over from the media.

Hmmm...

Ok, but if the reactor supplies Magnesium and Strontium (and possibly iodine), would it not also provide certain other trace elements that are necessary? Not all of them, perhaps, but enough? Is there no way to test for this, just to validate what elements are present, and in what relative proportions? That'd be another test I'd like to see.

 

[jdieck]

Magnesium Carbonate dissolves at a much lower PH than Aragonite, That is why those using dolomite in their reactors usually have to drive their reactor PH to the 6.3 levels. So if you run a Calcium reactor within the normal 6.5 or higher I doubt much Magnesium will get dissolve.
Now regarding iodine, I am almost certain that is not so, Iodine is not in any form that can be made available by dissolution.
As I mentioned before even if any trace elements are released by the media they will never be enough nor in a usable form to replace what is required. This is were water changes come into play.

 

[RichConley]

You guys who keep saying that Ca Rx media is made of all the things that corals use, you do realize that Corals aren't JUST skeleton, right? Theyre using a lot of things that are just staying in their skin, which your reactor wont add.


Also, remember, a Ca Rx will add phosphate, and anything else coral skeletons can wick up. 2 Part and Kalk wont do that.

 

[jdieck]

By the way, not all medias are coral skeletons. ARM as an example are natural carbonate deposits with a good amount of carbonates from coralline algae like Halimeda.
Koralith is a relatively pure form of pelletized calcium carbonate and Schuran has a good portion of carbonate from shells.

 

[davidryder]

I read somewhere this is no documented or reliable evidence that iodine is anything that needs to be supplemented.

I think it was this article by Randy Holmes-Farley that laid out pretty well what is provided by Ca Rx and other methods of Alk and Ca supplementation.

 

[jdieck]

From the article above:

<p><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20010210225056/http:/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/aug/bio/default.asp" target="_blank">Koralith
CaCO<font size="-1">3</font>/CO<font size="-1">2</font> reactor
media</a> has slightly less magnesium and strontium than does
the lime that I tested, and would have a ratio of 19.9 ppm
calcium per 1 meq/L of alkalinity. A different brand of media,
<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20010210225056/http:/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/aug/bio/default.asp" target="_blank">Super
Calc Gold</a>, has more magnesium, with a resulting ratio
of about 19.8 ppm calcium per 1 meq/L of alkalinity. A third
brand, <a href="http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=1995&cid=124&search=" target="_blank">Nature's
Ocean crushed coral</a>, has a similar level of magnesium,
resulting in a ratio of 19.8 ppm calcium per 1 meq/L of alkalinity.
All of these brands may fall short of the rate of incorporation
of magnesium in reef aquaria, as has been discussed in <a href="http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm" target="_blank">previous
articles</a>. Some aquarists have taken to adding a small
amount of dolomite (a material containing both calcium and
magnesium carbonates) to their CaCO<font size="-1">3</font>/CO<font size="-1">2</font>
reactors to add an appropriate amount of <a href="http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm" target="_blank">magnesium</a>.</p>

Note that without the addition of dolomite the Magnesium provided by a Calcium reactor is only 0.1 to 0.2 ppm and Strontium is negligible.

 

[NanoCube-boy]

Does that dripping into your tank? I just tune in... sorry. lost...

 

[Aquarist007]

I don't mean to be disrespectful here because I have read this whole forum and printed it off for future reference

I have followed randy's article over the last six months:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

I believe you need to learn the chemistry of your tank and then your work is decreased and little varience occurs.
I use seachem calcium, magnesium, and Kent DKh booster. Every other night I need to add calcium and magnesium to the tank.
Every week or two weeks I need to add DKH booster. I mix it in a milk bag holder, and pour it into the sump.
I measure calcium, alk, mag and pH every other day.
I keep my parameters in the range supplied by the article

This does not take alot of time or money---but I don't care about the time---this is a hobby and I enjoy taking the specs, making the tests and adding chemicals when needed--its also a challenge that I like.
I really haven't got into sps corals yet but I suppose when I do I will look into a calcium reactor because it will be less expensive at the time.

There are so many ways to complicate the hobby that for some people it becomes stressful or a chore. that is too bad when that happens because you don't enjoy the hobby as much as you could.

 

[davidryder]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10302642#post10302642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoCube-boy
Does that dripping into your tank? I just tune in... sorry. lost...

It drips into my sump when the water falls below a set level determined by a float switch. It's top-off water, mixed with lime (kalkwasser).

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10300109#post10300109 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Magnesium Carbonate dissolves at a much lower PH than Aragonite, That is why those using dolomite in their reactors usually have to drive their reactor PH to the 6.3 levels...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10300897#post10300897 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Note that without the addition of dolomite the Magnesium provided by a Calcium reactor is only 0.1 to 0.2 ppm and Strontium is negligible.

OK, I'm confused again. The way I'm reading your posts, you're saying that trace elements ARE there, although your point seems to be that there's some question as to the value of the concentration delivered by a reactor. But I'd rather have some, than none at all, and not all reactor media is represented by these studies, so things might have changed since last it was done.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10300352#post10300352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
You guys who keep saying that Ca Rx media is made of all the things that corals use, you do realize that Corals aren't JUST skeleton, right? Theyre using a lot of things that are just staying in their skin, which your reactor wont add.

Understood. That's where a conservative feeding regimen comes in for me, using something like Golden Pearls, and the like.

I think this has been a very productive thread, and those who are looking on, if they have the perseverence to read the entire thing, would do well to make a written analysis of the two methods, based on what they need and their systems, and then make a decision.

IMO, it sums up this way.

2-part Pros:

• Lower up-front cost
• Can be automated
• Ease of use (mixing 2 parts is pretty simple)
• Better solution for smaller / lower demand systems

2-part Cons:

• Higher long-term costs (raw material cost will eventually pass cost of reactor media, particularly depending on tank size)
• Automation can also fail or be unreliable, though less than a reactor due to simpler workings
• Some raw materials can be problematic (Chloride buildup)
• More work for larger tanks, or as system demands increase beyond a certain point. (more frequent mixing needed)
• Space demands can be a problem for larger systems (3 or 5 gallon jugs take up a lot of room compared to a reactor)

Reactor Pros:

• Lower long-term costs
• Once set, little to no adjustment needed
• Better suited to high demand / larger systems
• Simple to ramp up as tank demands increase
• Some trace elements added (can help forestall water changes)
• Space demands are fairly modest (reactor has higher delivery potential relative to space needed)

Reactor Cons:

• Higher up-front costs
• Longer setup time (from 3 to 5 days to set reactor running right)
• Somewhat elevated risk of hardware failure compared to automated 2 part system
• Some undesirable elements (Po4) might be added by certain media (but mitigated by refugium)

 

[Drewcipher]

I don't think anyone advocates altering your water changes. Even if it adds small traces of things, it is not enough to be useful. I would do the same changes I always do, regardless of this method of cal/alk additive.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303277#post10303277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
OK, I'm confused again. The way I'm reading your posts, you're saying that trace elements ARE there, although your point seems to be that there's some question as to the value of the concentration delivered by a reactor.

Trace elements are there in relatively minute amount to be relevant and in a form that is doubtful to be of useful to corals. In other words I would not count on any benefits from trace minerals from a Ca reactor

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303277#post10303277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert


2-part Cons:

• Higher long-term costs (raw material cost will eventually pass cost of reactor media, particularly depending on tank size)
• Automation can also fail or be unreliable, though less than a reactor due to simpler workings
  
• Space demands can be a problem for larger systems (3 or 5 gallon jugs take up a lot of room compared to a reactor)

Couple of points:

1) I've been through the numbers myself, and 2-part IS more expensive if you're using commercial stuff, or if you're buying online. If you can get the ingredients locally, its significantly cheaper.

2) If you're needing 3-5g jugs for 2-part, you're using a BIG reactor. 5g of (1 part of) Two-Part will raise a 250g tanks alkalinity by 115 points. Thats 3dkh/day for 40 days. (Thats Randy's recipe 1)

 

[Siffy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303727#post10303727 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
2) If you're needing 3-5g jugs for 2-part, you're using a BIG reactor. 5g of (1 part of) Two-Part will raise a 250g tanks alkalinity by 115 points. Thats 3dkh/day for 40 days. (Thats Randy's recipe 1)

That kinda brings me to something I've been thinking about while I read this thread. If people set up an automated 2 part solution, why would they only make up enough for a week? At least that seems to be the trend. I thought it was safe (in terms of precipitation) to store CaCL and CaCO3 solutions long term and only Kalk (CaOH) should be made on a weekly basis to limit its precipitation. If that's true, why wouldn't people make up a 6 month supply and somewhat "set it and forget it" as they would with a Ca reactor. I can already see the response "it won't fit under the stand", but peristaltic pumps are already being used and those can typically take a high amount of head pressure. It would make sense to me to have a couple barrels (or even a couple 10g glass tanks on some shelves) of 2 part mixed up in another room and pumped in daily.

Also, why has no one mentioned a Ca reactor without a pressurized CO2 bottle? No one is running one using muriatic acid fed by a peristaltic pump and a pH controller?

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303727#post10303727 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Couple of points:

1) I've been through the numbers myself, and 2-part IS more expensive if you're using commercial stuff, or if you're buying online. If you can get the ingredients locally, its significantly cheaper.

2) If you're needing 3-5g jugs for 2-part, you're using a BIG reactor. 5g of (1 part of) Two-Part will raise a 250g tanks alkalinity by 115 points. Thats 3dkh/day for 40 days. (Thats Randy's recipe 1)

1) Then let's play by the same rules and compare noncommercial reactor media, purchased in bulk discount, obtained from a local source, too, no? The apples-to-oranges thing is misleading.

2) Or, I just don't want to mix 2 part every week. I don't have to worry about my reactor for months, if not bumping up on a year from now. If all I use is a 1 gallon jug, I'd be mixing this stuff on a consistent basis.

Have you seen the room (or lack thereof) under a 72 bowfront? I just can't fit a sump, return pump, skimmer and two 1-gallon jugs and peristaltic pump under there. But, I can fit a reactor in the stand, and a CO2 bottle in the 6" of room between the stand and the wall. :rollface: