Calling Uncle

[JTL]

Jim or anyone else with experience building an acrylic sump or aquarium give me a hand. I would like to order the material and supplies tomorrow for my sump and glass for the aquarium later this week.

The sump can be either 40x16x16 or 40x18x16. It could actually be much higher since I have 36" of clear height in the cabinet, but I don't want to get too carried away. I did make a couple of things out of acrylic many years ago but they did not need to hold water.
(1) I was planning on 1/4 inch material. Is that going to work? I figured the baffles may give it the additional support it needs.
(2) The baffles from the skimmer will be 9", spaced 1" apart. This is per Jim's model and Melev. The fuge would be 13" high.
(3) I figured spacing between the sections at 11" for the skimmer, 12" for the return and 13.5" for the fuge.

I am going to have the material pre-cut for me and I do not have the tools to do routing, ect. As I read old posts it appears that it makes sense to over size the bottom so there is a 'ledge" to apply the solvent to the vertical sections. I can do this but it will remain there. Also, do I first attach the ends and the baffles to one side and then attach the other side and finally place this on to the bottom section? Any tricks to this? I know it must be assembled on a flat surface and I think spacers (needles) must be used when attaching the bottom to give the solvent time to soften up the acrylic. Hopefully not the sides as well.

Finally, do I use Weld-On 4 and what applicator.

I'll save the aquarium questions for another day. If I get help on this it will keep me busy for a while.
John

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would use 3/8" or 1/2" acrylic with a eurobrace. It will bow MUCH less and give a MUCH larger surface area for solvent welding. The larger bonding surface is much more forgiving for novice builders. Though many folks use 1/8", I don't use it for anything.

You did not mention flow through the sump, but 1" is pretty narrow and will do little to stop tiny bubbles.

There is no need to oversize the bottom. the solvent is pulled in via cappilary action

The "pins" method is used on all joints, not just the bottom. There is a huge Acrylics thread that stays near the top. It is a must read for those new to working with acrylic.

WO-4 is suitable. You can use a squeeze bottle with a needle tip or a syringe with a needle tip. Most folks prefer the squeeze type applicator.

I have a basic flash animation showing the construction steps and some very basic acrylic information.

http://beananimal.com/projects/acrylic-sump.aspx

Sides on back, then baffles on back, then front on sides. Set the whole structure on the bottom, then weld on the eurobrace last.

 

[JTL]

I was just going by others recommendations. Flow through the sump is whatever I need to do. I am using your overflow specs so if I understand this correctly the flow is dictated by the return pump. The main tank is only about 100 galllons? I was thinking about splitting the overflow between the fuge and the skimmer on a 25/75 basis. What do you think the flow should be? I can easily change the baffle width. Is the baffle height sufficient? Also 18" or 16" wide or the sump?

So you just apply the solvent from the inside of the sump rather than the lip on the exterior? The 3/8 makes sense. Sorry for all of the questions, but I just want to be sure I get this right before I spend the $$
John

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yup.. the flow is dictated by the return pump

I would make the sump as big as I could (of course without making it so tall that it can't be reached into).

You don't need to apply the solvent from the inside. The tiny gap between the panels (provided by the 'pins' will allow you to run the applicator tip right along the opening and capillary action will suck the solvent right in.

I can't really answer the baffle height question as there are many variables, but you should make them as high as possible to utilize as much of the sump volume as possible, while still alowing space for backflow during a power outage.

This a pretty big project for somebody without tools or experience. I am sure you can pull it off, but you may want to enlist the help of another local reefer or two that has some experience. Do you have a local club?

 

[JTL]

I checked some prices and it appears that I can construct my sump out of 3/8 glass for a lot less than the cost of acrylic, probably 1/3 of the cost. I can get the bottom and four sides cut and the edges sanded for $70 for a 40x18x16 sump. The bad news is that the baffles and fuge partition are almost as much as the sump. They have a 3 sf minimum of $11.55 so each baffle will cost the minimum. I can probably get those pieces at HD or Lowes, they don't need to be 3/8". I was planning on getting the glass for my aquarium from the same shop so it would be a good test of quality. It would also allow me to practice before I do the aquarium. The only down side that I can think of is if something falls on the sump it could break easier than acrylic.

 

[insane]

The minimum sq. ft. requirement will probably be for all pieces combined in one order not for a single piece. On your project, for each piece you need, figure up the amount of glass in it in square inches. Do that for each piece. Add up all of those to find your total of glass needed in square inches. Then divide that total by 144. That will give you your total of glass needed in square feet. Multiply that number by the cost of the glass for 1 square foot. That will give you your cost. Don't forget to add sales tax

 

[JTL]

I'm sending you an email, but the cost is per piece, not total sf. I will get them down. Count on that.

 

[uncleof6]

Yes?

 

[JTL]

Looking for your opinion. Actually I am just going to go with a glass sump, pretty much along the lines of Melev and yourself. 40x18x16. Spacing is in my first post. I do have a question regarding the tank overflow. I am going to use Bean's design with 1" holes to 1 1/2" down pipe. How far from the top of a rimless tank do I put them? Also I think I will put in two returns, should they be the same size holes? I need to finalize this stuff and move on, I got so engrossed the other day I forgot to feed my fish.
John

 

[insane]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15383088#post15383088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JTL
I'm sending you an email, but the cost is per piece, not total sf. I will get them down. Count on that.

If they try sticking it to you like that then it is time to get out the phone book. I got pricing from four different local glass companies and the price differences were almost half. That adds up to bookoo bucks when on a tight budget. Even if you have to make an hour drive to another city to pick up the glass, the cost of gas compared to the cost of the glass could be considerable savings.

One company here wanted $930.72 for the glass I want. Another wants $507.00 for the exact same glass.

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15383449#post15383449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JTL
Looking for your opinion. Actually I am just going to go with a glass sump, pretty much along the lines of Melev and yourself. 40x18x16. Spacing is in my first post. I do have a question regarding the tank overflow. I am going to use Bean's design with 1" holes to 1 1/2" down pipe. How far from the top of a rimless tank do I put them? Also I think I will put in two returns, should they be the same size holes? I need to finalize this stuff and move on, I got so engrossed the other day I forgot to feed my fish.
John

First why are you going to use 1" bulkheads? On Bean's original design, he used the 1" because that is what existed. My logic says if using 1.5" plumbing, use 1.5" bulkheads. For 1" bulkheads, it is a1.75" hole, no less than 1.75" from the top edge of the glass. For the 1.5" it is a 2 3/8" hole, no less than 2 3/8" from the top edge of the glass (or acrylic for that matter)

For higher flow system I would open up the spacing on the bubble trap baffles to 1.5", and depending on how high, to 2". Your baffle height should be fine, most skimmers work fine in 9" of water. (usually stated as a range), nothing to gain by making it deeper.

On the tank itself, for a rimless, the glass will need to be thicker than you think it should be. Also, I would not drill the back of the tank, rather have the back panel notched down an 1" full length, shy an 1" - 1.5" at either end, and put an external coast to coast on it, and run the plumbing through the external overflow, rather than the expensive back glass of the tank, if you break the bottom overflow panel (1/4" or 3/8") drilling it, oopsss oh well, but the back glass? hummmmmm. Coast to coast is the most efficient way to get the surface water down where the skimmer can work its magic. Bean has a good write up on it.

Ok, gotta go to work.....

Jim

 

[JTL]

I am down to ordering the glass for my tank and the sump. I have a couple of questions:
(1) should I put the return hole (it will be on the opposite side of the weir) as close to the top as possible" I am planning on setting the weir 1 1/2" from the top of the glass which means the top of the hole could be at about that height. It is pretty important to get this right.

(2) I am trying to understand why it is better to have 3 sections vs just the skimmer area and the rest dedicated to the fuge and return section, with egg crate to keep the algae out of the return pump. The sump will be 40x18x(?). I have 36" of clear height in the cabinet but I want to stick with 3/8 glass so I think maybe 18" is max on a rimless. The baffles should count as bracing. I need to allow about 2" for drain back. Why not use the other 14-16" for water. I really don't have a good way to install an ATO. I figure I will lose about 2 gal per day due to evap.

I not certain what he flow will be, but I am allowing for 1 1/2" stand pipes with 1" bulkheads. I don't have room to drill for the larger bulkhead.

John

 

[BenjieC]

Just a thought you may want to use a 40 breeder (36x18x16) you lose a couple inches but may save you some time and effort. Not rimless, but doesn't have a center brace either.

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15510943#post15510943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JTL
I am down to ordering the glass for my tank and the sump. I have a couple of questions:
(1) should I put the return hole (it will be on the opposite side of the weir) as close to the top as possible" I am planning on setting the weir 1 1/2" from the top of the glass which means the top of the hole could be at about that height. It is pretty important to get this right.

(2) I am trying to understand why it is better to have 3 sections vs just the skimmer area and the rest dedicated to the fuge and return section, with egg crate to keep the algae out of the return pump. The sump will be 40x18x(?). I have 36" of clear height in the cabinet but I want to stick with 3/8 glass so I think maybe 18" is max on a rimless. The baffles should count as bracing. I need to allow about 2" for drain back. Why not use the other 14-16" for water. I really don't have a good way to install an ATO. I figure I will lose about 2 gal per day due to evap.

I not certain what he flow will be, but I am allowing for 1 1/2" stand pipes with 1" bulkheads. I don't have room to drill for the larger bulkhead.

John

2) You want the flow through the fuge to be somewhat less than the flow through the skimmer section. combining the "fuge" with the return section robs you of this flexibility. It is not really that complicated or tricky to add the baffle needed to place the return section in the middle, feeding the fuge with a T in the return line. It does get a little tricky if you want to run an external pump.

1) From an aesthetics point of view, I would be looking to bring the returns up through the bottom of the tank, up close enough to the surface to make the use of a check valve unnecessary, and hiding it with aquascaping. Then there would be just the vortech in plain view.....

J

 

[JTL]

2) If I make the sump 16"-18" high and only need a couple of inches for a drain back emergency could I raise the baffles to raise the water level in the return area. I am trying to maximize my water for evap purposes. I have never had a sump so I am trying to visualize how is will work. When I get a better skimmer if it needs less water I can just raise it up. Maybe I am missing something.

1) Could I bring the return(s) in from under the OF box and run a small tube up to just below the surface to set my drain back volume. I was thinking about some rigid 1/8-1/4"clear that might not be very noticeable. Do you think it is best to have the returns pushing to the weir?

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15516905#post15516905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JTL
2) If I make the sump 16"-18" high and only need a couple of inches for a drain back emergency could I raise the baffles to raise the water level in the return area. I am trying to maximize my water for evap purposes. I have never had a sump so I am trying to visualize how is will work. When I get a better skimmer if it needs less water I can just raise it up. Maybe I am missing something.

1) Could I bring the return(s) in from under the OF box and run a small tube up to just below the surface to set my drain back volume. I was thinking about some rigid 1/8-1/4"clear that might not be very noticeable. Do you think it is best to have the returns pushing to the weir?

2) I think what you are missing is that you are over thinking it. If you have the height, you can increase the bubble trap baffles an inch to 10" rather than 9", you can bump the fuge baffle up to 14", and gain an inch in the return section. The depth of the return section, is set by how much water you put in the system while it is running. I.E. you CAN bring the water level up to .5" below the bubble trap height to gain volume if you want to. The only thing that becomes troubling, is when the surface area to depth ratio gets to the point that the volume of water does not breath well. (1:1 vs 1:1+ ) Same applies with a DT.

1) This is one area that over thinking is, perhaps, a good idea. You want to think it out far enough that mechanical or electrical devices are not needed to limit the back flow. (anti siphon holes/tubes are mechanical devices and can get plugged). That means the return outlets within an inch of the surface (or less). For this tank, I see an over the top, in good size pipe for your flow rate, with a 45° ell outlet just under the water surface, opposite end from the overflow, as opposed to robo fittings, being the least intrusive, and most fool proof, followed by through the bottom inside some rock structure.

Jim

 

[JTL]

Over thinking is my specialty, but I still screw it up occasionally. What is the surface area to depth ratio?

As far as the return. It is becoming painfully obvious that trying to get returns and standpipes in an area that is 23x5 1/2 probably is a feat for a contortionist. Especially using larger pipe sizes. My latest thought with all your good input is to put a single 1" bulkhead on the opposing side, in the center. I could actually go a little larger and still have room for an MP40 below the return. I am thinking of the depth of the MP40 and the outside dia of the return pipe that would be right behind it all fitting into the available space. I can put an nice black cover over everything and it only need to be 4" wide.

Help me with this:
The side is 23" high and I am cutting the weir side down by 1 1/2" so that will be my water line. If I drill for the top BH slightly below that, say 2" from the top will that work. I figure I could do some kind of Y connection inside the tank to split the return if necessary.
John

 

[uncleof6]

Surface area to depth ratio: Tall narrow body of water has more trouble "breathing" (and more pH problems due to it) than a shorter wider body of water. This has been a design criteria almost since the beginning (just seems tank manufacturers don't care about it.)

Yes that would work, though 1" pipe, is pretty small size. I would not commit to the vortech on one side or the other, rather when water testing this thing, change the location of it around until you get a good idea of what it will do in each location, and at different settings.

J

 

[JTL]

How do you do the math on the depth side to get the ratio? For example if my sump is 18x40=720 and it is 18H what is the ratio?

I need 2 1/2 inches of depth for the Vortech. With all of the pipes in the way under the weir it is going to be tough, if not impossible. The only solution is to do the Bean without the "safety" OF (is that a Herbie?) and leave the center area open. Gotta love puzzles to be in this hobby.

 

[uncleof6]

Snickers about the math.......(due to the terms I use for this, which are unrelated to the math) that sump would be 1:1.

This one is for the record books as far as fractured math and logic go: It is a very simple inequality.

Bean will love it.

(Length X width )/length >= Depth

where length = the longer dimension, width = the shorter dimension

All the values to calculate the volume of the tank are there, just on different sides of the equation......:rollface: :mixed: :lol: :smokin: