Calling ZEOVIT Quits

[msp307]

just a FYI, but changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank. and the bacteria removing nutritions. so be carefull

removing carbon source, would mean death of most bacteria you have cultured, so again, be carefull going off Zeo. or in fact any other bacterioplankton system which is holding water quality in check

it can be alot of work ... till you find a balance ... which is usually 3-6 months ... its prety smooth after.

Carbon source? Like going from zeo start3 to reef biofuel

 

[Allmost]

Carbon source? Like going from zeo start3 to reef biofuel

yes. they all feed different bacteria ...

 

[msp307]

I've seen nice tanks on the zeo website that use Mb7 instead of zeo bak and reef biofuel instead of start3.

 

[allsps40]

All I do is run GFO and carbon and regular water changes. I did the MB7 vodka thing for a while but I agree it is to much work and runs the tank right on the edge of being way to clean. While the tank stayed super clean corals paled. GFO carbon, water changes and stability are the key and it has always worked very well for me so I am just sticking to it. No more jumping into the latest dosing craze for me.

 

[StarF]

Really no water changes.. lol.. how. I demand pics!

I run my system the same way, i tryed zeo but it was to much work, and to expensive, and i fealt that you really ran the system on the edge all the time. So i am running biopellets + calc reactor. No water changes what so ever, i cant see a reason to change the water, unless you are having isues.. I dont use Rowa, i sometimes use a little active carbon but not all the time, and i do add 2ml of vsv every day, to help keep the po4 down, but other than that its pretty easy to keep. And i think my colors and growth are ok. (the reason i dont use rowa for po4, is becaus i feel it strips my water to much, and i get pale colors then. My hanna meter measures 0.0 on po4 even if i run with out.. ) also the only things i am adding besides what my system is getting from the calc reactor is, kalium and amino acid. i add kalium when i feel my blue colors are a bit off..

 

[allsps40]

Not doing water changes will catch up with you sooner or later.

 

[StarF]

Not doing water changes will catch up with you sooner or later.

Naaa.. TBH its overrated. i know a lot of persons who are running stunning sps system with out water changes, for several years.. I know 2 who are running on their 4´th year. I my self, have had several system, where i never changed any water, unless there was something wrong.

My view is, the "You MUST change 10% water volume each week" myth was started by the salt industry, to sell more salt. But it also depens on what kind of system you are running, some change water to avoid ion balance isues and so on. But i dont see that being a problem if you run calcium reactor, instead of balling.

Here is another system running with out water changes:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1975963

 

[Allmost]

I've seen nice tanks on the zeo website that use Mb7 instead of zeo bak and reef biofuel instead of start3.

please try to read my post more carefully before judging

"changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank."
and I nevere said if one source is superior to another ! I said change will bring change .....


Hope you will read more carefull now

you are welcome to ask any chemist guru if different carbon sources indeed do promote different bacteria strains.

lol

 

[rick12]

please try to read my post more carefully before judging

"changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank."
and I nevere said if one source is superior to another ! I said change will bring change .....


Hope you will read more carefull now

you are welcome to ask any chemist guru if different carbon sources indeed do promote different bacteria strains.

lol

Allmost, what are your thoughts or opinions on no water change?
thanks

 

[Allmost]

Allmost, what are your thoughts or opinions on no water change?
thanks

IMHO, there are 2 aspects to water changes, lowering nutritions or replacing elements in seawater. (as Randy explained in his article)

in a SPS tank main nutrition export should be bacteria, coral growth, and removal of excess bacteria by skimmer[replace bacteria with algae growth for non-bacterioplankton systems]. if equilibrium with this regard is met[import = exort], then water chagnes would have no effect on nutrition [or might even be counter productive !!, as you could loose too many bacteria, and might take a couple days or hours for equilibrium to be met again. in theory]

other important aspect is replacing lost elements or deluting of the ones you have dosed too much of ! but with the new balling methods(ones that count for sulfate, and also ionic balance), and even a good calcium reactor with good media, this problem can be overseen as well. although it will take alot of experience ...

for me myself, my tanks are usually overstocked nad I feed too much(I like fat fishes and I just cant lie !) , and I am not too carefull with element dosing [besides kh and ca++] so a weekly or bi weekly water change is always on my list. but I do believe we can do without, if we plan correctly, use ca++ RX, have not too many fish, feed them less, have appropriate skimmer, and more importantly, know your animals/corals and what they are telling you.

 

[MammothReefer]

you guys are nuts hahah. If I don't do water changes regularly I see a fast steady decline in my tank. Granted I've known other people who could get away without them, and I've even know people who have grown sps with nothing more then a return pump and a tiny rio in a rather large system. My tanks unfortunately for me requires a lot of attentiveness in my part. They always have.

 

[Allmost]

you guys are nuts hahah. If I don't do water changes regularly I see a fast steady decline in my tank.

why is that though ?

either nutritions raise up
or certain element you dose isnt used up. [so it builds up to toxic levels]
or certain element you do not dose is used up. [ so it falls below aceptable levels]
or through balling salts, ionic balance is lost.

I personally cant think of anything else ! so if you figure which one of the above is the problem, and correct that, then you might be able to get away with less water changes

not that Im advertising for no water changes ... often to achieve that, you have to do more work than a simple water change

 

[rick12]

can you explain ionic balance lost through balling salts?

why is that though ?

either nutritions raise up
or certain element you dose isnt used up. [so it builds up to toxic levels]
or certain element you do not dose is used up. [ so it falls below aceptable levels]
or through balling salts, ionic balance is lost.

I personally cant think of anything else ! so if you figure which one of the above is the problem, and correct that, then you might be able to get away with less water changes

not that Im advertising for no water changes ... often to achieve that, you have to do more work than a simple water change

 

[coralreefdoc]

DRW94. I would seriously consider not discontinuing ZEOvit, due to the time consuming nature of it alone. You will undoubtedly be tinkering more for the next few months trying to implement a different nutrient control. Yes. ZEOvit can be time consuming, however, it can also be ran very successfully without tinkering everday ! Realistically, you should be tweaking dosages/making small changes no more than on a weekly basis i.e. A change in dosage should be followed by weekly/bi-weekly observation of those changes on the system as a whole, before considering/implementing any further changes. "highlight the observation part".

If you still decide to discontinue ZEOvit, please PM me as I would be interested in purchasing your unused ZEOproducts ... Thanks

Be careful with BioPellets if you decide to go this option !

 

[MammothReefer]

why is that though ?

either nutritions raise up
or certain element you dose isnt used up. [so it builds up to toxic levels]
or certain element you do not dose is used up. [ so it falls below aceptable levels]
or through balling salts, ionic balance is lost.

I personally cant think of anything else ! so if you figure which one of the above is the problem, and correct that, then you might be able to get away with less water changes

not that Im advertising for no water changes ... often to achieve that, you have to do more work than a simple water change

I wish I could tell you, it would be great to never have to do water changes again. However I've ran a lot of different tanks over the years, a lot of different ways. From no fish, to heavy stocked, .5 gallon nanos to 500gallon systems, skimmer-less, and over skimmed, calcium reactors, bionic, 2 part, Vodka, biopellets, sugar, zeo combos, nsw only, cheap salt, $$ salt. I've always found (with the exception of a few small nanos that just had softie/lps). I have to stay on top of water changes or my corals just don't responds (speaking of sps ). Sometimes it was measurable in the increase of nitrates, but sometimes not, as with my current tank. I wish I could pin point what is being depleted or added in excess but for the last couple sps systems I have no been able to tell week from week the numbers all avg over time yet if I don't do water changes growth will get stunted and then I will eventually start to see a decline in the utilization of alkalinity and calcium which will result in a surplus of alk/calc unless I am constantly changing my doser setting. That will result in a swing which can be detrimental.

 

[Allmost]

can you explain ionic balance lost through balling salts?

raise of salinity and build up of sodium chloride.

remember balling we dose sodium carbonate
and Calcium Chloride

carbonate and calcium are used to make caco3 [calcium carbonate]

leaving us with excessive NACL, compared to other elements in seawater.

if you look up Randy's article he touches on it [the two part article, end of it.] and that is why for example Fauna marine's balling adds NACL free salt, to bring the concentration of other elements up to where they should be with regards to new concentration of sodium chloride.

a weekly water change of 5-10% will take care of that.

B-ionic claims to have taken care of this. they say their additive is ionically balanced, which means the CA++ part contains residue of other elements.

 

[nrike]

(I like fat fishes and I just cant lie !) That's funny

 

[Moser]

yes. they all feed different bacteria ...

That's news.... Which different ones do they feed?.

Thanks
Mo

 

[Allmost]

That's news.... Which different ones do they feed?.

Thanks
Mo

Hello Mo

I am not a biologist to know exactly what strain of bacteria each carbon source promotes/feeds, but I know they feed different ones, with different C:N ratios, and and some carbon sources like acetate can also feed some higher organisms as well ! hence why changing the carbon source, changes the biology of the reef tank.

would be amazing to have a study of the C:N of different bacteria strains ! as what they use now is just C:N ratio of marine algae ... !

would love to see upates on your beautiful reef Mo

 

[drw94]

Here is an updated FTS after the rebuild. Everything is doing great, tons of growth. I only do 2 part and kalk. I feed corals 2-3 time a week with oysterfest, and rotifeast.