Can marine ich linger on a healthy fish?

Marinemom

Marinemom

New member
O.K. I have a 60 gallon reef tank that has been up for 4 and 1/2 months. presently there is only one fish because marine ich killed all of the othner fish several weeks ago. I do regular water changes and the readings are ammonia-0, nitrites-0, nitrates-0, PHis 8.2 and S.G is at 1.026. The temperature is between 78 and 80 degrees. The corals are mostly soft corals and a few stoney corals like frogspawn, Branching hammer coral, and a donaught coral. There is also one sea bae anenomne in this aquarium. The one fish is a green chromis.(my son thinks that the green chromis stressed the other fish out that caused ich).So, with this one green chromis; can he still keep ich in the tank because he is a fish host or is this something I don't have to worry about? The green chromis is very healthy and at the moment has the entire 60 gallon reef to himself. All of the corals are also growing and thriving as well as the sea bae anenomne. Can the corals or the anenomne still carry the ich and if so for how long? Will the ich eventually die if no additions are made for several weeks? I would like to add either some pajama cardinals or some maroon clown fish but I don't want this viscious cycle of marine ich to re-appear and cause any new additions to die terribly. How can I be sure that this ich is gone after what has been about 5 weeks? My water changes are usually small. Would a bigger water change be in order before adding more fish to make sure the ich is really gone? I feel it is better to be safe than sorry. Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Marinemom
 
Well if the green chromis is showing signs of ich then yes, theres a good chance he brough it into your system. Corals mounted to rocks can introduce ich if the ich is attached to the rock durning the tomont stage after floating in the water column. What I would do is set up a qt tank. Then after all fish have been removed from the tank, you can let the tank sit for 4-5 weeks MIN. in order for the ich to die off. If there is no host then the ich will die off. Remember, ich will not affect corals or inverts in your tank so they will be fine. Before adding a new fish, let the tank sit for awhile list stated above for all the ich to clear and while this is doing this, it would be a good time to start up a qt tank which you can use for ALL new fish before entering the main tank. Then once the fish are added to the qt tank, put them in hypo for atleast 4 weeks. I recommend 5-6 weeks myself for all types of fish. Qting the new fish will ensure ( if you qt right ) that the new fish you buy will not introduce ich into your tank. A water change won't help much. Continue with the normal water changes. 10% a week is recommened.

If my post confused you or you are losed then please post questions and I'll try to answer them. You can do a search on how to set up a qt on google or look at the pinned threads in the Fish Disease Treatment forum here on Reef Central.
 
O.K. The green chromis shows no signs of ich. He looks,acts, and swims around like a normal fish.(Whats normal for a fish). Do you mean that I should remove the chromis fish from the main tank and qt him even if he does not appear to be sick? I do not have a qt tank set up but I have a 10 gallon that I could probably turn into a qt tank. However, Doesn't that tank have to cycle too? How do I cycle the qt tank relatively quickly so I can begin this process? I don"t want to put him (the chromis) through the stress of a cycle. Thanks for the quick reply. I still have questions. Sorry for that but I'm little confused on how to start this process.

Marinemom
 
Well he could have ich but you wouldn't know it. Ich isn't always visable but another sign of ich is if hes rubbing on the rocks. If he seems fine then leave him be. Yes, set up the qt tank. Just cycle it how you would a normal tank. Just make sure you don't add sand or rock. The cycle may take 4-5 weeks and then you can get the clownfish or other fish you want and put him in the qt and then put him into hypo for 4-6 weeks. It will be awhile before you get another fish into the tank but this will make sure ich or other diseases don't enter your tank.
 
I would get some test kits for those corals if you don't have them: magnesium, calcium, alkalinity: Salifert kits are good: they give numbers. Temperature s/b closely around 80. Salinity should be 1.024-6.

If you bring your water quality up to standard for those corals it will also help the general health of the tank. Your readings should be, in those departments:
alkalinity (first and most frequent test) 8.3-10 (midrange is good)
calcium test often: 400-450, low end of range is best.
magnesium (test if the first two will not rise) s/b 3x calcium reading.

You have a sump: do you have a skimmer and live rock? That will improve water quality on its own.

Things that cause problems: persecution/stress/new surroundings; bad water quality; overfeeding (bad water quality); and top of the list, wild fluctuations in any basic parameter. Try to stabilize everything so that there are no swings.
 
I do not have a sump or refugium. There is no room for them with the current setup. There is 77 pounds of live rock in this tank for the biological filteration and also an emperor 400 running for mechanical filteration. There is about an inch of arrogonite crushed coral for the substrate. If I had to do it again, I would use sand.I recycled the emperor 400 from a freshwater tank that I had to take down because of a problem with the glass that was beyond repair. So, I set up a saltwater reef in its place. This is my first attemt at a saltwater aquarium although I have been fishkeeping freshwater fish for over ten years now. So far this saltwater adventure has been anything but pleasant. Problems with the fish. Problems with the protien skimmer. I just keep trying. I cycled this reef with live rock. How do I cycle a 10 gallon qt without the live rock? What do I use in its place? Any help will be appreciated.

Marinemom
 
just fill it with saltwater, you could add a little flake food and just let it sit there it will cycle on its own.

If your going to treat the fish, I recommend treating all fish and leaving your tank fishless for 6-8 weeks. I jsut finished and ich treatment. treated all fish with hyposalinity for 9 weeks. SO far everything is excelent

Here is a link on Hypo...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
make sure you ahve a refractometer
 
Why not take a few pieces of LR from your display and put them in your quarantine tank? They should be able to handle the ammonia produced by a single fish and you would not have to wait for the tank to cycle at all. If you want to keep the LR after the QT period is up just wait a few weeks and return the LR to your display.
 
For a quarantine tank, I'd recommend a small filter like a Fluval or something similar. The suggestion about using fish food to get the filter started is a good idea, IMO. If you want to risk some live rock, that'll work, but transferring live rock is always a bit risky due to possible die-off. Some animals, especially sponges, don't like exposure to air, etc.

You could leave the Chromis in the tank, but at this point, I'd vote for quarantine and probably hyposalinity, since the tank has had a recent ich infestation. I'd say 6-8 weeks without fish seems to be about the normal recommendation for starving out ich. Water changes aren't going to help, really.

These article discuss marine ich:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php
 
I think you should quarantine the chromis. Its the only way to be sure and not risk the health of your new fish. Keep you chin up, I know saltwater can be aggravating, we have all been there. But I def. think its worth it. Once you get everything up and running you will be so proud, and everyone will think your tank is beautiful.
 
Just to reinforce the importance of what has been written here, if the other fish that were in the tank with the chromis have died off for ick, the chromis has ick even if it doesn't show. Putting the fish in quarantine for any number of weeks will still mean the fish has ick even at the end of that period.
As some have already mentioned the fish needs to be treated for ick with copper or formalin or hyposalinity or it will just be carrying the ick back to the main tank again. Beware though, that hypo doesn't always work as some strains have successfully survived hypo at 1.0075 for at least six weeks.
Any future fish will also need to be treated because again, just putting them in quarantine does nothing if they have ick and don't show it for the duration of the quarantine.
 
Thanks rObin for the encouragement with my saltwater tank.I know it will be all worth it when I have a thriving reef complete with the fish I want, but this is sooooo frustrating. So what is hyposalinity? I think I've read about this. Is that when you lower the S.G. in the tank? How low should the S.G. read for a hypo procedure? Afterward, how do you acclimate the fish back to the normal S.G.? The 10 gallon I have is currently a freshwater setup with a molly in it but I can convert it over to saltwater if I need to. The molly can be transfered to another tank. Right now, there is a penguin 125 filter on this tank. Will that filter work with this saltwater setup if I change the bio-wheel? There is plenty of live rock in the main display. Maybe I can transfer a piece of that rock to cycle this tank. How long will it take and do I put the chromis in the qt. tank when it is cycling with the live rock? Sorry for all the questions but I am new to this saltwater thing and the last thing I need is problems with the qt. tank too. If I have problems with the qt. tank than I will have twice the trouble. I want to make sure that I do this right for the sake of the fish and my sanity. What about substrate in the qt. tank? Or is this asking for trouble? Please be patient with me. I'm still learning this process. If anyone can help me with this, please chime in. The help is of course greatly appreciated.

Patiently waiting,

Marinemom
 
First, to perform hypo your going to need a refractometer. Drsfostersmith.com has them for 40 dollars or so. You can use your swing arm to start to lower the salinity but you need the refractometer to get it exact. Hyposalinity is dropping your sg to 1.009, you can go to 1.008 but I wouldnt recommend any lower. Youll need to do a series of water changes taking out salt water and adding plain ro/di water or whatever it is you are using. The penguin should be just fine if thats what you have, change the wheel though. I personally wouldnt sacrafice and of my LR to cycle the tank but that is your preference. You could also use water from your main display this could help. You have to test the QT cycle could be one week to four weeks, it all depends ont he variables. Just take it slow. Keep an eye on your chromis, Look for the spots. If you dont see them yet he isnt that infected and he should be fine if all goes well. After you place your chromis in the QT lower the salinity over a course of 3-4 days. If the ich is visible keep the chromis in the tank for 6 weeks after you see the last spot. If not visible run it for the full 8 weeks. While performing hypo keep an eye on your ph levels. When the hypo is all finished you can slowly bring the salinity back up to 1.025 over the course of a week.
During the hypo dont add any more fish to the main display, let it sit fishless for at least the 8 weeks, This should starve out all remaining ich.
Hypo isnt hard to do, just take your time and read the threads above.
Also leave the QT barebottom and dont leave the rock in during the hypo. Place a piece of PVC in the bottom of the tank for a hiding spot. A 10 gal tank is a bit diff from a 60 so dont over feed and you may want to monitor ammonia as well
Any other questions, just ask there are plenty of reefers around to help.
Good Luck!!!
 
Do not put substrate in the quarantine, put some PVC pipe for the fish to hide in. S.G. should be 1.009 I have heard and yes you would have to acclimate all the things you do. You can't have the salinity that low and then just put back into the main tank with reg. salinity. Refractometer would help.
 
PVC is a good idea. It is my understanding that once live rock is exposed to copper it cannot go back into the display tank, if the display tank has inverts. To fill my QT tank I added water from my display tank, so the tank / water was ready to go. Then make regular water changes , often replacing water in the QT tank from my display tank. To help with the ammonia / biologicals in the display tank - take a clean filter and place it in the display tank (if you do not have a sump). The fibers will pick up the beneficial bacteria. Use this filter in the QT. Have 2 filters and keep rotating them.

Six months ago my display tank came down with ich and half my fish died. So I set up a QT. As my QT was getting set up some of the fish survived the bout of ich and have showed no signs of ich since. I read all the usual threads for ich and spoke with lots of seasoned reefers. I got 2 stories. The first was as mentioned above. Remove all fish and break the life cycle of ich. The other advise I received was that if there were no signs of ich for several months, the tank was safe. I also have a heavy duty UV filter. I mention this story because I have 4 new fish I am getting ready to introduce into my display tank. They are in my QT tank and are 2 weeks into their quarantine. If you are interested, I will let you know how this plays out. Wish me luck. One question, anyone know how long inverts should stay in QT before being put in a display tank?
 
The only problem with using main display water to do water changes is everytime you do a wc you could be bringing ich into the qt. In the initial setup it is fine to use the water from your main display, after that you need to mix new water.

Several months is too long to keep hypo going. Hypo is harmless up to a certain extent of tiem then it can cause liver or kidney damage i forget which. 6-8 weeks should be sufficient with no harm done to fish. My fish were in hypo for 9 1/2 weeks, ich is gone and no ill effects
 
Thanks everyone for answering my post. I have a refractometer already that is German made and is top quality. That is how I usually measure the S.G.On second thought I probably won't use any of my live rock. I don't want to risk it. I'm going to work on setting up the qt tank today so I can get this process started.I will change the bio-wheel on the filter too. I was pretty sure not to use anything for substrate so I will just leave it bare. Now; any ideas on how to get net the green chromis from the main display tank when there is 77 pounds of live rock and several corals, not to mention the sea bae anemone in there? This should be fun.I really don't want to start tearing apart the rock structure or putting the corals and the anemone at risk. Ideas anyone on how to accomplish this seemingly immpossible task? Please chime in. All suggestions are welcome.


Marinemom
 
OK, so in marinemom's's case she has one fish left after a severe outbreak of ich killed all of her other fish. The Chromis she has has no signs of ich. If she leaves the chromis in the display and 2 months later the chromis still has no signs of ich won't she be in the clear?

As I understand the life cycle of ich, if a single fish is the only one left after such an outbreak it would have to show signs of ich in the next month or so if it was acting as a host. The theronts need a host, and if they find the chromis they would form trophonts visible as cysts on the fish. If no theronts find the fish then after 4-6 weeks the ich should all die off.

If this is not the case, how long can ich survive without going through the trophont stage. If it is a long time, then how does QT of a fish assure you it is free of ich before you place the fish in the display tank?

If this is so it would seem to me that all fish should be quarantined AND prophylactically treated for ich by whatever method.
 
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