Captive Bred Yellow Tangs

[jmaneyapanda]

Let me ask this too: why, if this was such an amazing advancement, is it only to be found in an old magazine, buried away? Why no internet references, or other literature (including the numerous books on angelfish)?

 

[Dejavu]

jaa1456, I believe that the article you provided is refering to Frank as said by many. Here is list of angels that Frank breed and raised http://www.rcthawaii.com/angel/6.htm.

If this has actually been done before Frank, than there would have been reference some where, if not here on RC, but somewhere else. I have yet to find anything.

 

[tcmfish]

So because it was done by someone else and before this site that means it didn't happen right? What did you say when you first heard of other fish being bred in Captivity? Did you say nope impossible as well? I'm not sure of the exact date this site started but I believe it was in the late 90's as in 98 or 99, so the guy who did breed them would have had almost a decade to do so. I mean most of the people in this hobby today have learned from mistakes and efforts made by poeple who had marine/reef tanks for years and years. I don't care what you say but you can not replace experience, no matter how much you read. Owning a reef tank for over 16 years now, I have experienced alot that othere members haven't and I was around when things were still infantile. And I really need to find those articles on that angel.

Dude, reef tanks and raising fish especially the ones in question, are like apples and oranges. Angels are freakin' hard to raise and that is why Frank and RCT are so well known, because he accomplished something not many people will. Now yellow tangs make angels look like a piece of cake, so to say those were captively raised as well is retarded.

If raising fish was as easy as keeping a reef tank don't you think more people would do it? Also if you could just learn from your mistakes that quickly, don't you think people would have done that?

If you culture food to feed larve, that food needs food, like live microalgae (which can crash) or dead microalgae paste, plus some foods are canabalistic, plus getting nauplii the right size that the larvae will eat them is difficult, plus the environment they were raised in, plus many more factors all come into play when raising fish. Some people (like Frank) collected prey for the larvae, so he didn't have to worry about culturing, so someone in the UK (and I don't want to say 100% sure, but I will say it that Peter didn't raise or sell any) landlocked would have a pretty hard time culturing the right prey let alone, raising the angels.

Also as Jeremy stated, word would have spread.

 

[velvetelvis]

What ever happened to the centropyge-breeding program at RCT, anyway? Was the operation just too unprofitable to continue?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I have provided some material for you that clearly states they have been bred in captivity, while it leaves out a name and place it does confirm Captive Breed angels. You just don't know how to read I guess. And as I stated I have to look through a ton of magazines and articles I have that are packed in boxes. It's like finding a needle in a haystack and I'm not gonna spend all my time looking for this article. When I find it, I will post it.

For the record, I contacted Peter Schmiedel, and asked him specifically if he ever bred the Resplendens, and his response was, verbatim:

nope no breeding - although they did spawn. But at that time I did not even try.

I guess I better brush up on my "reading" skills.

 

[angelsil]

Got any comfirmation.

Nope. I was only sharing my experience with that LFS and *their* claim of it having been bred in captivity. The fish did fine in my tank and I really had no reason to pursue the matter further. I will say I never saw any other "CB Argis" there in the 2 or so years I lived in the area.

 

[melanotaenia]

Nope. I was only sharing my experience with that LFS and *their* claim of it having been bred in captivity. The fish did fine in my tank and I really had no reason to pursue the matter further. I will say I never saw any other "CB Argis" there in the 2 or so years I lived in the area.

Argi angels have been bred/reared in captivity. I remember reading a thread on these years ago from a guy at a university. Not on this site though. I will try to dig up the link.

And there are plenty of breeders out there that do not post on the Internet. It is true.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Argi angels have been bred/reared in captivity. I remember reading a thread on these years ago from a guy at a university. Not on this site though. I will try to dig up the link.

And there are plenty of breeders out there that do not post on the Internet. It is true.

Are you talking spawned, or reared to notable (sellable) size? That is apples and oranges. The spawning is easy. Raising the fry is hard. As stated, acquiring the proper food source is a very difficult thing.

I dont discount that there are people who do not post on RC. But, for something like this, in a realistically global ground breaking situation, which would yield the source a reasonable profit, I dont see how it could remain such a secret. That person may not post, but someone would. Its just hard to believe it is such a secret that nobody knows or it has functionally published.

But, please do post the link.

 

[elegance coral]

Frank Baensch of RCT is well known in the hobby and the scientific communtiy as being the first to successfully spawn and raise angels in captivity in 2001 (not just by us here on RC). Is it possible that someone did it before him? Yes (minutely)... but there was nothing published on it as the scientific community would have known... and you are saying this was done before reefcentral existed which would be back into the 90s well before Frank.

Martin A. Moe, Jr started breeding marine fish in 1969. He was the first to commercially breed clownfish. He was also the first to breed Atlantic marine Angelfish. He had accomplished this feat by the time of the publishing of his first book in 1982. This information was published on the back of his book, The Marine Aquarium Handbook, Beginner to Breeder.

 

[velvetelvis]

IIRC, Martin Moe was also the first to breed yellow-headed jawfish (another fish I wish were still available CB). Maybe with the increased interest in sustainable reefkeeping (even if it's a relatively small portion of the hobby as a whole) we'll see more efforts to breed these animals again. I won't say I'd give my eyeteeth for a CB centropyge (especially from the argi complex) or jawfish, but I might be willing to part with a back molar.

 

[MrTuskfish]

We have a lfs that just got a vendor with tank raised:

tassled file
jordan's tusk
blue hippo tang (pacific)
yellow tang
kole tang
gold spotted rabbitfish
rainfordi goby
white sleeper goby
green chromis
talbots damsel
long spine cardinal

Now granted, they are quite a bit more expensive than WC.

Tank raised fish ARE WC; just caught at a small (or even tiny) size and raised to a larger size in captivity. If I buy a tankful of small wild-caught juvi yellow tangs, raise them and and sell them as adults; aren't they tank raised?

 

[tcmfish]

Martin A. Moe, Jr started breeding marine fish in 1969. He was the first to commercially breed clownfish. He was also the first to breed Atlantic marine Angelfish. He had accomplished this feat by the time of the publishing of his first book in 1982. This information was published on the back of his book, The Marine Aquarium Handbook, Beginner to Breeder.

Moe RAISED large angels. He didn't raise any Centropyge as far as I know. He even had gray and french hybrids, but I don't think they survived very long.

Edit: He did not spawn the adults though, he collected fish that were ready to spawn and then raised the larvae. Somewhat different than tank-bred or tank-raised IMO. Because if fish are tank-bred the adults bred in a tank and the babies were raised. The way tank-raised is being thrown around now, fish are just collected small and raised a little to a sellable size. He actually did raise angels through the larvae phase.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Moe RAISED large angels. He didn't raise any Centropyge as far as I know. He even had gray and french hybrids, but I don't think they survived very long.

Edit: He did not spawn the adults though, he collected fish that were ready to spawn and then raised the larvae. Somewhat different than tank-bred or tank-raised IMO. Because if fish are tank-bred the adults bred in a tank and the babies were raised. The way tank-raised is being thrown around now, fish are just collected small and raised a little to a sellable size. He actually did raise angels through the larvae phase.

+1, and furthermore, this is well documented and published. Its not a "secret basement breeder" or only referenced in an old magazine. He did so with the massive benefit of access to natural microfauna to feed the larvae (being on coastal Florida). This is most my point. If such a trade changing event had occurred, why arent we flooded with information and praise?

To be honest, I hope I AM wrong, and this has changed- it would be a very exciting development. But I fear I am not.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Tank raised fish ARE WC; just caught at a small (or even tiny) size and raised to a larger size in captivity. If I buy a tankful of small wild-caught juvi yellow tangs, raise them and and sell them as adults; aren't they tank raised?

Yes, but the implications are different, from an ecological view. Tank raised (as what many hatcheries and fisheries have done) is beneficial because it takes a burden off the established "grown" fish collection. Definitely the mature, breeder animals, but even small immature animals are far more "valuable" to the ecohabitat, than the uber small post larval fish. The tiny post larvals have ENORMOUS mortality. So, collection and growout of these fish impacts the natural ecosystems far less than even removing small adults, or even juveniles.

From a marketing or economic view, you are correct. Heck, I can hold a wild caught fish for 1 day, and say its tank grown or tank raised, and not be lying. Its semantics and integrity. And unfortunately, this trade is ripe with greed and dishonesty by some.

 

[velvetelvis]

It would be helpful if some industry guidelines were set to define what constitutes "captive-bred" (or "tank-bred") or "tank-raised", just as the "organic" label has to meet certain standards in food. I've seen these terms used almost interchangeably.

And as always, education is needed...I've actually asked LFS staff about CB or TR livestock, only to be met with a blank look--or in the case of one fairly crappy LFS, to be told, "Everything we have here is captive-bred" (as the employee gestured towards tanks full of tangs, triggerfish, and angels; needless to say, they've never gotten any of my money). That really p*ssed me off...if I know enough about marine aquaculture to asked for CB livstock, I'll probably have an idea of what's available CB and what's not--i.e., tangs, triggers, and angelfish! :uzi:

 

[elegance coral]

Moe RAISED large angels. He didn't raise any Centropyge as far as I know. He even had gray and french hybrids, but I don't think they survived very long.

Edit: He did not spawn the adults though, he collected fish that were ready to spawn and then raised the larvae. Somewhat different than tank-bred or tank-raised IMO. Because if fish are tank-bred the adults bred in a tank and the babies were raised. The way tank-raised is being thrown around now, fish are just collected small and raised a little to a sellable size. He actually did raise angels through the larvae phase.

Naturally, the parents were wild caught. How else was he to get them? Once in his system they spawned, they made whoopie, they mixed gametes, they bred. The breeding took place in captivity. In other words, the offspring were captive bred. He did not go out and collect larvae, or fertile eggs. He bred the fish in captivity then raised the offspring.

He did not breed pygmy angels. I didn't claim that he had. I was responding to the statement that Frank Baensch was the first to breed angels in captivity. He was not. Martin Moe was. Frank Baensch was the first to breed pygmy angels.

 

[copps]

Naturally, the parents were wild caught. How else was he to get them? Once in his system they spawned, they made whoopie, they mixed gametes, they bred. The breeding took place in captivity. In other words, the offspring were captive bred. He did not go out and collect larvae, or fertile eggs. He bred the fish in captivity then raised the offspring.

He did not breed pygmy angels. I didn't claim that he had. I was responding to the statement that Frank Baensch was the first to breed angels in captivity. He was not. Martin Moe was. Frank Baensch was the first to breed pygmy angels.

Martin Moe has done amazing things and contributed greatly to our hobby, but you are wrong in part. Martin's fish did not spawn in captivity... he strip spawned them and mixed the sperm and eggs together... Martin was the first to captively RAISE angelfish, but Frank was the first to captively spawn and raise angelfish. In order to have Pomacanthus paru and P. arcuatus spawn in captivity the system would need to be huge...

 

[tcmfish]

martin moe has done amazing things and contributed greatly to our hobby, but you are wrong in part. Martin's fish did not spawn in captivity... He strip spawned them and mixed the sperm and eggs together... Martin was the first to captively raise angelfish, but frank was the first to captively spawn and raise angelfish. In order to have pomacanthus paru and p. Arcuatus spawn in captivity the system would need to be huge...

+1

 

[TampaReefer79]

You guys really know your stuff. This is a very interesting read (to me) and thanks for everyone keeping their cool!

 

[MrTuskfish]

You guys really know your stuff. This is a very interesting read (to me) and thanks for everyone keeping their cool!

I don't know why ''strip spawning'' isn't more common; it may just be nearly impossible to get the fish together "at the right time". Plenty of booze may help. Strip spawning sure works with wild FW fish; like walleye & muskies.