Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

Agreed! Great discussion. While we're on the subject, I was reminded of another CUC candidate, reading another thread. He mentioned the use of sand sifting sea stars. Here is an article that sums up how I feel about them:

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/sand-sifting-starfish-job-too-well-done-astropecten-4399/

While I'm at it, I'll go ahead and add the sand-sifting fish to this group. It is not easy to populate our sandbeds with enough of the right kind of effective detrivores, so I would not recommend any creature that eats them. The problem, as usual, is scale-our tanks just aren't big enough to support detrivore predators, and keep a healthy, effective detrivore population.

 

[taricha]

Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

Agreed! Great discussion. While we're on the subject, I was reminded of another CUC candidate, reading another thread. He mentioned the use of sand sifting sea stars. Here is an article that sums up how I feel about them:

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/sand-sifting-starfish-job-too-well-done-astropecten-4399/

While I'm at it, I'll go ahead and add the sand-sifting fish to this group. It is not easy to populate our sandbeds with enough of the right kind of effective detrivores, so I would not recommend any creature that eats them. The problem, as usual, is scale-our tanks just aren't big enough to support detrivore predators, and keep a healthy, effective detrivore population.

Good point. It's such a common story In fact, it might be interesting to note the predator/prey relationships that DON'T collapse in a reef tank. It's really, really small number.

Sponges+limpets -> asterinas -> harlequin shrimp .... I thought came close to stabilizing, but nope. Just took many months to collapse. Sponges gone, then asterinas wiped, then sponges came back.

Probably only stable one I could point to in my system is bristleworms -> coral banded shrimp.

(Edit: I wonder if the tiny snails reproduce fast enough to support perhaps a single small whelk, maybe someone could actually have a bumblebee snail and it not be stupid. Interesting that there are commonly available organisms in the hobby that are destructive to their hobbyist systems virtually 100% of the time)

 

[McPuff]

This was always my fear with sand sifting stars. I've had very good success with them for multiple years, but you have to be careful with how many you introduce. As I stated in my own post, I've got 2 in my 300 gallon and it does not seem to be enough (I had one but it was clearly not enough). Based on their mobility, or lack thereof, my assumption is there is plenty to eat within the sand bed. Therefore, they do not have to move so much. That said, they are not sifting through enough of the sand bed. The flip side, is that I do not want to add any more of them for fear that I would reach a tipping point and they would rapidly diminish their food supply. I'm not worried about the bacteria and other organisms in the sand as much as I am about the nutrients that would be trapped there. My live rocks and bio media in sump will serve more than adequately for that purpose.

So while I do agree with the article, it would be more helpful to put it into context a bit more. For example, I would not put a sand sifting star into anything less than 90 gallons (maybe 120)... and that is assuming a scape with plenty of surface area that is just sand.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Taricha, I think I had a whelk, that I bought, thinking it was a nassarius snail. I found it eating a mini strombus, so I removed it. I think it would eventually wipe them out, but it would take a while, since I have a lot. I had a similar situation with an atlantic blue tang. I brought it in to crop back my macros, that were growing so fast, I had to prune more than weekly. It was great, for awhile. But at about the six month point, I realized I would have to remove him, before he completely wiped out all of them. I think I might have gotten a year out of him if I had let the macros get more overgrown before I added him.

So, there are lots of predator-prey relationships that work well in aquariums, like snails and algae, and many that don't, because they don't 'fit' in our tiny boxes. We have to figure out what works and is sustainable in a very limited space. Often it means that we have to act as the apex predator to remove something that upsets the balance we're trying to achieve.

 

[Chasmodes]

"I noticed your pods are not biotope-specific", said nobody ever.

That's funny right there, I don't care who y'are! :lol2:

I think that's what my tanks need, some local algae eating snails. I guess I need to focus on that and other sand bed critters in my sand bed.

Can't wait to see the new sea whip and macro purchase in your tank. Good luck with them, sounds awesome!

 

[Michael Hoaster]

I get a good one out there occasionally! Being from the South originally, I was amused by your use of "y'are". Southernisms… Have you heard this one? If you're naked, you're just nude. If you're necked, you're up to something!

I agree, working on the base of the food chain will help. Snails and worms and pods, oh my! (movie reference!) You are lucky, that you have not one, but two tanks to practice on before you get the big tank up and running.

If I were you, when you do start up the big show, literally start from the ground up. Collect some local substrate near an oyster bar and get it into your tank asap. That will give you a great start on your detrivore community. A lot of folks treat the sand bed critters as an afterthought, when actually, they should be thought number one! Again, I'll bring up the similarities in starting a new tank, to the beginnings of life on our planet.

I'm kind of excited about the new additions too! Particularly the chondria, since I don't even know what color it'll be. Since I had some success (ok more like a little) with gorgonians, I'm hoping this species flourishes in my tank.

 

[Chasmodes]

Have you heard this one? If you're naked, you're just nude. If you're necked, you're up to something!

Naw, I haven't heard that one, but it's pretty funny too! My parents and siblings lived in Alabama for years, so between that and the Blue Collar Comedy Tour, I've heard a bunch of 'em :lmao:

I'll bring up the similarities in starting a new tank, to the beginnings of life on our planet.

That's really so very true and profound, something every aquarist needs to remember.

 

[taricha]

yep, Michael your Atlantic Blue Tang / Caulerpa experiment was super interesting and great eye-candy.

A follow-up from IPSF on these snails.
"strombus" grazers for sale on their facebook page.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

It was pretty cool. That fish was so gorgeous, especially as a juvenile, with the bright yellow. Plus he had a great personality, zipping around, checking everything out. Best of all, was watching his natural grazing, and how naturally he cropped the plants. It looked so much better than my pruning. It was very nice to not have to prune. I miss that fish! I wish I could get another one. Maybe in another, bigger tank…

 

[taricha]

I'd like to think you could have given him some yummy dried seaweed (or something unnaturally delicious like a banana) to reduce his natural grazing to where it's in balance.

At least I want to believe it could work. Was super awesome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[Michael Hoaster]

I did try feeding him some veggie foods. He refused. I think it was because he already basically lived in a fresh salad bar. Maybe if he had been fed in a bare tank first and gotten used to it, it could have worked. But training him off of his grazing behavior seems unnatural and I'd hate to do that.

That's the key, getting it to balance. It seems like it would be possible. It's just a matter of scale. I think I have that now, with my reproducing snails and micro algae. I think a tank designed specifically for him could work. Nothing but fast growing caulerpas, growing everywhere but the front glass, in a very large tank. But is that a cool display? It suppose it could be. But that isn't what I'm trying to do with this particular tank.

Maybe someday we could bio-engineer tangs in different sizes, to fit different sized tanks…

 

[Chasmodes]

Or hit the lotto and build a massive fish room with all the biotopes you could ever want. :rollface:

 

[Michael Hoaster]

I installed the new metal halide bulb. It's a 5200K. It's a bit more yellow than the previous bulb, but brighter. I'm still getting used to it, but I think it'll work well. It may inspire me to reinstate the blue CFL light I used recently, for a little more color at the dim end of the tank.

I also got the new gorgonian and chondria plant placed. The gorg is around 14 inches long. I stuck it in one of the gramma holes in the back wall. As usual, I played around with multiple locations, so I hope I didn't injure it too much. So far it looks good. I placed the chondria high up on the wall, near the light, as it is a shallow water species. It kind of looks like a brown (rather than blue) hypnea. But once in place, it showed some of the iridescence they are known for. It's kind of blueish-purple. I think it will make it.

This brings me to a point regarding the tiny strombus snails we've been discussing. First of all, I have a LOT of them, so competition may be a factor. I'm having about a 50% success rate introducing new macros. Most, if not all of the failures are due to these little snails devouring the new plants before they can get established. So, I just wanted to point out a potential downside to these snails. I'm sure they prefer micro to macro algae, but macros are definitely an option!

 

[Chasmodes]

Good luck with the new additions! Sounds like things are really coming together nicely again. Time will tell with how the light affects the manatee grass, I guess. How are the new chromis doing?

 

[Michael Hoaster]

I've been dreading that question, but I knew it would come. The new chromis are dead. I believe they died of uronema, commonly known as the chromis disease.

I've been taught another QT lesson, unfortunately. The lesson is, when you quarantine blue chromis and they die of uronema, you have to break down the tank and sterilize everything. I did not, thinking I'd never try chromis again. However, when I encountered the Vanderbilt Chromis at my LFS, I thought I'd found the perfect, hardy substitute. However hardy they are, they aren't immune to uronema. So they contracted it too and died quickly.

Going forward, I will make sure my QT methods are sound and thorough. I now have a full appreciation of the paranoia many experience, with new fish additions and quarantine methods.

As hard as it is to admit this experience here in my thread, I hope it can benefit someone. If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to answer them, with the hope I can help prevent someone else making the same mistakes I've made.

 

[sam.basye]

You sure it's not something fishy going on with the QT?
Sure seems like you haven't been having much luck with anything you've put in there.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Both groups of chromis displayed the same symptoms, so I'm pretty sure it was uromena. There were two mollies in there with them, and they're still doing fine.

But yes, there has been something fishy going on, and that's my slackness with quarantine in general. Hopefully, I've learned my lesson this time!

The best defense against disease is to never get it. In decades of fish keeping, my success rate at curing sick fish is 0%.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

So, after all that depressing news, I have some good news.

My seagrasses are pearling! For those not acquainted with the term, pearling is when an aquatic plant produces little bubbles that look like tiny pearls. The bubbles are oxygen. When this happens it means that the plant is photosynthesizing well and growing. It also means that my tank water is super saturated with oxygen, so no more can dissolve into the water, so it bubbles out. This commonly happens in fresh water planted tanks, but it's the first time I've seen it in my marine planted tank. So yay!

Hopefully, this means I've got some new growth coming up…

 

[sam.basye]

Exciting! Hopefully they really start multiplying!

 

[Chasmodes]

Congrats on the sea grasses pearling!

Sorry to hear about the chromis. I know you were looking forward to them brightening your tank. Keep your chin up. It's all a learning process. Sometimes we take a step backward so we can move forward. Better luck next time.