Casper's health is declining

[melev]

Dan, I'm ready. The tank is rinsed out, filled up and a fake plant (never used) is anchored in the 10g. I added rigid airline tubing for air, and Casper is floating in a bag acclimating now. The tank is running 72.7F while her tank is 75.8F.

What dosage do you recommend for Furan II? The package says one capsule per 10g. Do you dissolve it in a cup of RO water?

 

[DanU]

I would go with the label on dosing. I usually mix my meds in saltwater in a container with a stick blender. Then add to the tank. The rigid tube will work, but I prefer an airstone as it seems to get better circulation.

Dan

 

[melev]

I can definitely add an airstone. I got the impression earlier in the thread to use only tubing. Okay, I'll get it mixed up, and should be able to put Casper in the tank within 20 minutes or so.

 

[melev]

Thank you for all your help thus far. Everything is about ready.

Do you recommend that I acclimate the new seahorse to this tank as well for the treatment, in case it was exposed to this problem now?

 

[DanU]

Marc, we use airstones in our fry, grow out and brood stock tanks without issue. I would not treat the other horse unless he/she is showing symptoms. Your setup looks fine. Good luck!

Dan

 

[melev]

Thanks. She ate a few mysis that I dropped near her tonight.

I just reviewed this thread, but maybe I missed it. Any idea what caused this in the first place? How long will treatment typically last? How often should water changes be done (1g, daily)? Am I adding another capsule of Furan II daily, as recommended on the package?

 

[NanoLurker]

i've never used that med so i'm not sure how long the full course of treatment is or the recommended WCs before redosing. i've used neo3 and neomycin/triple sulfa purchased from NFP and they're 10 day courses, 50% WC daily. the other antibiotics i've used have also been 10 days. no matter what, a full course is required, no stopping short because you see improvement.

sorry - rigid airline or airstone both work, i sometimes will run one of each and my horses tend to prefer the airstone, kind of like little bubble massages.

i keep at least a 5 gallon bucket of new water brewing at all times when they're in QT. it helps to have prepared clean water ready if needed. it can be stressful treating this guys and the last thing you need is to be frantically mixing and trying to match parameters. ammonia can be a problem because there's no biofilter so watch out for that, another reason to have matched water ready.

it's good that she ate something, that is one of the keys to treatment.

your plant looks like one i have in my QT tank now . i also have a piece of clear acrylic tubing (about 1" diameter, feeding tube kind) attached to the back with a spare heater holder. anything that's easily cleaned and they can hitch to comfortably is good.

hard to say why it happened. when did the first symptoms appear? was it immediately after you added the second female (she's pretty)? or did she have symptoms prior to the new addition (suppressed appetite, tail beginning to change color, etc.). as panmanmatt said the other horse could be an asymptomatic carrier. could just be she's always had it and for whatever reason it popped up (stress, temp, ammonia spike, injury to the tail).

 

[melev]

I'd say this started up about a week ago. The new seahorse was added about 3 days ago, I think.

It's hard to imagine one tiny seahorse in a 10g tank creating ammonia especially if it isn't eating much. The good news is I have 5g of premixed water ready to go, and I'm filling up my 55g drum right now so that by noon I can add salt and get that mixing well.

I'll read the instructions on the package again. Odds are my LFS can get the other medication if I ask for it, but I have a feeling switching meds may not be ideal. Maybe I should stick to one treatment until it has concluded.

The tank is 70.8 right now. The small heater I have for this tank (50w, I believe - it's old) doesn't turn off at its lowest setting, so I'm guessing its low point is 71 or 72 perhaps. I didn't want the tank to get too cold tonight as my house is 68-69F, and the 300w heater seems like a disaster in the making even though it has a lower set point marked on it.

I'll see about adding a few more hitching items tomorrow. She's sleeping right now.

 

[NanoLurker]

you would be amazed at how quickly ammonia can jump when treating them. doesn't seem like it could but combine antibiotics that are hopefully killing bacteria, food, and waste and it can pop up to .25 quickly. i never truly appreciated my tanks biofilter until i started keeping horses again.

if symptoms started a week before the new addition then it's doubtful she introduced something new.

generally, you don't want to switch treatments mid-stream, so to speak. let's see how she's doing with what you have on hand. if it wasn't saturday i could send you additional meds (neo3) as a backup. i will e-mail you tomorrow though as there are a couple of items you should have on hand with these guys. oh, i forgot, there is a liquid form of neomycin available at most feed stores - it's called Biosol and has been used by a number of seahorse keepers in conjunction with triple sulfa.

i try to keep them as comfortable as possible and offer them a couple of different hitches, nothing too fancy. a thicker one like the large tube, i have even used just a piece of prefilter (the kind of perforated/waffley looking stuff), the rigid airline tubing, a plant or fake coral. nothing you're too attached to it just gives them someplace to move to and hang for a bit.

go to sleep now like casper

 

[melev]

That is good to know. Thanks.

 

[DanU]

You will probably never know the exact etiology of the disease or which bacteria this is. There is still a lot to be learned with seahorses and many of the fish diseases. One thing that seems to help, particularly with tail rot, is cooler temperatures. There seems to be much less incidence at the lower temps of 74 or lower. Doesn't totally eliminate it, but seems to reduce the amount of incidences.

I would keep an eye on the temperatures of the hospital tank but would not be afraid of the temps as low as 68. I have kept reidi at 68 - 69 degrees for the duration of winter last year without issue. They were still breeding at those temperatures.

If you keep a real close eye on the ammonia, you may not have to do a 50% water change. We usually recommend it as not everyone does this well and any rise in ammonia will be a stressor and we want to remove as many stressors as possible. You can also use a little Cloram-X, Amquel + or Prime.

The label on Furan 2 is for a 4 day treatment. At the end of this you will need to re-evaluate. If you see improvement, you can do another course of this or do a 100% water change and go with the Neomycin/Triple Sulpha combination. Triple sulpha is generally available at many LFS. Most that carry Neomycin is way underdosed. Biosol as mention is a liquid form of Neomycin and is available at many farm supply stores or they may have the generic version. If you should get this, go ahead and pick up a syringe, 3 cc or 6 cc for dosing. The Neo3 as mentioned is is a complete round of Neomycin and Sulpha drugs in a convenient package with instructions.

Dan

 

[melev]

Thanks Dan. The temperature is 71.1 in the tank right now, and the heater is off. Casper is near the base of the plastic plant, and a few hours ago she was hugging it while she slept.

Do you know of anyone that is keeping zoanthids and dendrophyllia (looks like giant suncoral polyps) at 74F? I've been keeping this seahorse in a small reef-like environment and a higher temperature than that for the past 7 months.

 

[panmanmatt]

Marc,

I keep zoas at 72-74 in my seahorse tanks. No experience with the dendro (yet).

 

[LisaD]

Marc,

I just noticed this thread. Sorry about the problems you are having with Casper. Matt and Dan gave you good advice. The only thing I would add is that sometimes lowering sg can help, both to inhibit bacteria and give the seahorse some relief.

I had a case once where a male ingens had an extremely swollen tail as well as some internal bubbles (under the skin). I treated with a combination of neomycin and triple sulfa as well as Diamox. It took a few weeks but it cleared up completely. I don't know if Diamox would be indicated in this case, just thought I'd mention it. This seahorse was so bad off at the time, it only ate if offered frozen mysis on a bamboo skewer feeding stick!

If you need some meds, send me a PM. I have a pretty well stocked medicine cabinet and could send you something if you need it Monday. I have both Neomycin and Triple Sulfa as well as quite a few other meds...

I know Casper did fine in his tank for quite a while. However, IME, seahorses do better long term in larger tanks with horizontal as well as vertical space, and a choice of lower and higher flow rates to swim in. Also, I'm not positive, but that second seahorse looks more like a kuda than a reidi to me.

Good luck! I hope he makes a complete recovery. I think you have acted quickly enough that he stands a decent chance.

 

[melev]

Hi Lisa,

I appreciate the offer to mail me meds for Casper. I'm hoping I can just pick it up locally from the LFS to not put you or anyone else out, plus that avoids further delays waiting on the mail to arrive.

I've been planning for some time to build Casper a newer tank, and it will be really nice with more vertical room. I've been planning it for some time now, but have been too busy to to build it.

With that one sick seahorse, you combined quite a few medications at the same time. I didn't know you could do that. How did you know that you needed all three, and that you could mix them all in the same hospital tank? Or did you use one medication at a time, working from treatment to treatment?

Kuda? Darn. I was trying to get a male reidi for Casper to court with.

I just checked on Casper. She's at the bottom of the tank, and she was hardly breathing while I watched for a steady 30 seconds. Then she started breathing more quickly a few times. I think she was holding her breath to mess with my head.

Tank temp 71.3F
Salinity 1.0245
pH 7.95

There is no light over the hospital tank to increase pH during the daytime. I can lower the salinity via the water changes if necessary. What would be the target salinity to aim for?

 

[panmanmatt]

Usual reccomendation for salinity 1.011 mesaured with a refractometer or salinity probe. Dropping the salinity can be done in one shot instead of gradually. The osmotic shock is what you are looking for. It will not harm the hores.

Brining the salinity back up is another story. It should be done gradually over about 2 weeks time.

 

[NanoLurker]

the neomycin and triple sulfa are pretty much always dosed together, as dan said, they have a synergistic effect. diamox (acetazolamide) is usually added if the seahorse has any edema, fluid retention, caused by the infection. you'd know if that happens because she may appear bloated and have problems swimming (negative bouyancy). diamox it is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor and is commonly used to treat glaucoma in humans. i've used all three together myself a couple of times, no problems.

do you think he should drop the salinity that low? i know it's usually recommended for parasites and some meds but i'm not sure if he should go that low in this case. i'm a little reluctant to do that if there's any potential for open wounds. JMO though.

 

[melev]

That is really low. I know I'm trying to help her, but I have to imagine she's weak, and now stressed from the move. I have a hard time believing I can do all of this and not end up killing her in the process.

 

[LisaD]

The three meds (neomycin, sulfa drugs and diamox) can and have been used together numerous times by many keepers. They don't seem to have negative interactions. Diamox also has some antibiotic properties. I don't think I'd go as low as 1.011 on sg, but I'd consider going down to 1.015-1.018.

If you want to go with less intervention, I'd recommend the neomycin/sulfa combination, lower temperature (as you have done) and slightly lowered sg, to about 1.018.

Where she is right now is pretty critical - she will either make it or not in the next couple days. I understand your not wanting to stress her any more than necessary. FWIW, I have found that quick and aggressive treatment in these kinds of cases is very important. Good luck, I know you are doing all you can for her.

If you decide you want me to send meds, I can send them by FedEx overnight delivery on Monday. I am allowed to use my work's FedEx discounts for personal shipments, so the cost would be pretty reasonable for a small package.

Good luck!

 

[melev]

Thanks Lisa. I'll see if I can get any of these meds tomorrow morning, and if not, I'll send you a message in this thread and via PM.