Casper's health is declining

[Swanwillow]

I know that this may be a little OT, but I believe that it relates...

your seahorses seem, well, kinda small for your having her for 6 months... unless your zoanthids are HUGE compared to normal ones. maybe there is/are some underlying issues with her? the new one you got looks pretty darn skinny too, but I'll blame that on whomever had it before you... while you have the one in QT, and the other not, you may want to up the feeding amount... my reidi/kuda things eat about 7 mysis AT LEAST per feeding... thats alot of food, but they WERE similarily sized about a month ago to yours, and were eating about the same amount, maybe one less. and thats 2 feedings a day... 14 full sized PE mysis a day (times three for mine-two for yours, so at least 28 mysis a day for two horses that are growing)

wow-I never did the math before, but in a reef tank, normal people would freak out at the huge bioload that creates. HA.. sorry, going OT even farther. I'm just worried that they are both a little skinny: the one almost emaciated looking (your new one) causing stress upon the horse, and therefore=vibro incfection (on top of being in a small-ish hight tank)

just IMO-not trying to be mean, just trying to give some ideas as to why vibro would break out suddenly...

 

[melev]

I appreciate your input. I'm well-known for heavy feeding, and when I do feed I turn off the filter to keep the food in the tank. I do huge water changes and still have PO4 issues in the tank due to the excess food.

I agree, the new horse looked very very thin, but hopefully it will plump up. I have fed twice a day in the past, but Casper was enjoying her meal simply once a day around 9pm. I use Hikari mysis, and I couldn't count how many go in the tank. Its a decent amount.

Some of those zoos are the large polyped version, while others are tiny.

The new tank will be much more spacious, which will help with water quality.

 

[nickiwit]

Marc, I have neo3 and diamox if you need it. I just ask that you replace the neo3 for me when you get a chance.

 

[melev]

And you are a little more local. Thanks Nicki. I'll see if the LFS has any in the morning.

 

[Swanwillow]

ok-just making sure, ya know!!!!

 

[melev]

I just got off the phone with the LFS to see if he can get any of the meds listed in this thread. If he can't, I'll contact LisaD for the overnight. Nicki, I appreciate the offer but the drive to Allen and back would probably cost as much in gas (and I don't have the time today) as the overnight fees.

I did a 5g water change last night, and added another capsule of Furan II. Casper ate some mysis, and has been moving around the tank some as she desires.

During the water change, I carefully sucked out anything on the bottom of the tank (uneaten food or waste), and right at the end as I was trying to stop without making a mess, Casper or I made contact and her head was sucked against the siphon of the 1/2" tubing! :eek2: I shook her off in a panic while pulling the tubing up out of the water to stop the siphon-vacuuming effect. Poor girl! I may end up killing her just being stupid. She looked stunned, but seems okay today so far.

Last night in the middle of the night she was sleeping in the corner of the tank standing up rather proudly, but other times she seems to be leaing forward a little too much. Her breathing seems slow to me. The temperature of the tank seems to be staying between 71.1 and 73F. Current pH 7.8, salinity 1.025sg

 

[melev]

LisaD, you have a PM with my mailing address. The LFS can't get the meds here until Thursday.

 

[LisaD]

Marc,

I don't know if I can catch the FedEx truck in time, I'll try.

Lisa

 

[melev]

From another movie: <i> Run, Lisa, run!</i> :lol:

If it goes out tomorrow, I'll still get it quicker than the LFS can get it in. I appreciate your help.

 

[pledosophy]

Hi Marc,

Sorry your going through all of this. Seahorse.org is back up and running now if you want to consult with Keith Gentry or DianeB.

Sounds like you re doing everything right. YOu are getting some good information here.

I would double check the dosage on the medications you plan to use are for seahorses. Many times the dosage needs to be increased to combat the various strains of vibrio that seahorses can incur. The only medication I know o that is designed for seahorses is the Neo3 and others from aquabiotics.net

While many things can cause an outbreak of vibrio, it also may be your new addition that started the problem. I believe an asymptomatic carrier state occurs with seahorses as far as the carrying of the different strains of vibrio. It has been found on many occasions that seahorses can carry a strain of the bacteria and show no ill effects from it, but when mixed with a seahorse who carries a different strain of the bacteria that outbreaks can occur.

Think of it in terms of Americans drinking the water from Mexico while it is fine for one, it causes another to become ill.

Under normal conditions a seahorse can live it's entire life never having an outbreak from the strain it carries, however certain stress factors can weaken the state of the seahorse and allow the bacteria to begin to take over.

I am sorry you are having to go through this. Hope your reidi pulls through. It is amazing what they can come through and still be just fine.

Kevin

 

[melev]

Thanks for chiming in Kevin. I'm going to keep updating this thread, and it will be mentioned at the end of the next reefcast as well, so listeners can remain up to date.

If you or anyone sees something that needs correcting, please chime in. When I get the meds from Lisa, I'm sure they'll be the right ones. I just need Casper to hang in there for the duration.

I mixed up 55g of saltwater overnight. I've got plenty of water change water ready to go, although I'll need to water it down slightly as sg is 1.027 (oops). I'll try bringing the hospital tank down to 1.018sg unless someone sees a problem with this.

I'm going to try feeding her a little mysis now.

 

[DanU]

How is she doing now Marc? Same, better or worse?

I have mixed feelings on the salinity. There are some that would argue that dropping the salinity has the potential for reduced uptake of the antibiotics. Lower salinity means the fish don't have to ingest as much water and as a consequence don't take in as much of the meds. On the other hand, lowered salinity can help with parasitic issues. Many of these would require you to bring it down to 1.011 to be effective. Hyposalinity treatments should be run for several weeks. I have given antibiotics under both scenarios and both seemed equally effective as far as treating infections.

Glad to see she is still eating, keeping nurishment in her is critical. You may also want to try to get some Beta Glucan in her as well. This can help boost her immune system and fight off the infection.

Don't forget, if you change meds to do a 100% water change before dosing.

Dan

 

[melev]

Dan, I just spent a little time watching her. She didn't seem interested in eating, especialy since I'm poking a small dropper her way to gently squirt some food her way. She's used to just chasing food that magically appears in her tank, after all.

Thanks for the advice when I change meds regarding the water. I needed to know that.

She's moving about the tank a little, and the damage on her tail looks about the same to me, not worse. She seems to breathe quietly. She may be eating some food off the base of the tank since she's leaning forward most of the time, and I'm not watching her non-stop. I think I saw her snicking a couple of times, and it looks like she's swallowing something.

I'll post a few pictures in a minute.

 

[LisaD]

Dan,

I sent Marc gentamycin, neomycin and triple sulfa from National Fish Pharmacy. Perhaps you or Keith or Diane can advise on proper dosage rate?

Marc,

Hope it gets there in time to help. Look for it around noon.

 

[melev]

Here is the picture of the new seahorse, in case you can tell me if it is a Kuda or reidi.

The following pictures were taken with a flash through green medicated water. I probably could try again if I adjust the white balance in my camera, so let me know if you need them retaken. I adjusted the levels in photoshop to clear the results somewhat.

Are these speckles airbubbles under the skin or some type of marking? I really can't tell at the moment.

 

[DanU]

The new seahorse looks like a kuda from the pic. I am concerned though as it looks as if I see discoloration in the tail. Is that indeed the case? If so, it is going to need treatment as well.

Glad to see the pic of the tail of the reidi. I would switch to the Neomycin and Triple Sulpha. As mentioned, you will need to do a 100% water change before administering. I would follow the label directions on the Triple Sulpha. I don't remember their exact directions for the Neomycin but I do recall it being under dosed by what we normally recommend. Each scoop (level 1/4 teaspoon) is approximately 400 mg. The dosage we suggest before was 250 mg/gal. So for a 10 gallon tank you will want to give 6 level scoops or 1.5 level teaspoons. This is a 10 day treatment protocol. After 24 hours, and each day thereafter, do a 50% water change and then give 1/2 of the original dosage.

When adding the frozen mysis, try to count how many you add. This way you can tell if she has eaten any. I would consider getting some very small ghost shrimp if you have them locally available and gut load them with Beta Glucan. Live foods are harder for them to resist.

Lisa, you are a great sport. Kudos to you for sending the meds.

Dan

 

[melev]

Thanks for the ID. It was supposed to be a reidi. Oh well. Yes, the very tip is white. I can move it over then.

Good tip on counting the mysis. The food I thawed today was uncharacteristically pulverized for some reason. Usually each one looks like a little tiny shrimp, so I must have gotten a corner of the mix from the package.

I'll check on getting some tiny ghost shrimp.

Thanks for the suggested dosage too. If Casper heals up, she's going to owe you a snick'd kiss for all your trouble.

 

[LisaD]

Dan, the meds I sent do not have a scoop - it is not SeaChem Sulfathiozole or Neoplex. but bulk powdered Neomycin and Triple Sulfa from National Fish Pharmacy in Arizona. Not sure if the activity is the same or not. I also sent Gentamycin in case the Neomycin/Sulfa combination doesn't do the job.

Lisa, you are a great sport. Kudos to you for sending the meds.

Thanks Dan. With all Marc has done to further the reef hobby with his contributions on RC and his great website, it was the least I could do.

Marc, the Gentamycin should not be used in conjunction with the other two antibiotics. I sent it as a possible "plan B".

 

[DanU]

Thanks Lisa! Dosages were based on their meds.

Marc, a level scoop is equal to a level 1/4 teaspoon of the powder.

Dan

 

[LisaD]

BTW, IME the bad tail is treatable, more so at the stage the new horse has than with Casper. it is very critical to do the water changes (and replace meds with change water), keep up the full course, and keep water quality high. the lower temps help, really. I defer to Dan here, but sometimes IME it required more than one full course of antibiotic treatment.