Centropyge debelius
- Thread starter lebreef
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Blue Ring Sting
New member
Does anyone know what the actual price of the Debelius Angelfish was? And more importantly what would one sell for it was collected again?
Blue Ring Sting
New member
That's the thing. It is all price dependent. For me it is not worthwhile going to Mauritius to collect unless we know how much people will pay. At the moment I am working at between $8-10k.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Blue Ring Sting
New member
No store would get. It would be direct retail. The costs to collect is too high to be sold at wholesale prices. It's something I need to consider carefully as gas fills, Boat Hire, flights, etc add up quickly.
Blue Ring Sting
New member
From what was previously mentioned, I think the Debelius sold for $3k, which doesnt make a collection worthwhile, unless it is done by a local.
This is what we have worked out so far.
We will use 3 100 - 120 m diver, 2 Deep backup+ 2 shallow backup (doubles as fish deco team) We can play around with this configuration,1 x snorkler (doubles as fish deco team).
We will need to charter 2 boats, which locally cost about $ 400 for half a day, don't know how much it will cost in Mauritius. One will be used for the deep team and back up divers and the other surface emergency support.
Gas bill will be as follows per day.
Deep divers gas fills will cost $ 35 - 40 per day ( trimix and back up gas )
Back up dives gas fills will cost $ 15 - 20 per day (diving nitrox )
We have worked out that locally in South Africa we are looking at R 12000 / Approximately $ 1200 a day to do a dive beyond 80 m.
This total excludes the transport and care of the fish until they are able to be exported and also excludes flights and accommodation and the transportation of all the necessary dive equipment.
So basically, how many people would be interested in a Debelius at $ 8k?
This is what we have worked out so far.
We will use 3 100 - 120 m diver, 2 Deep backup+ 2 shallow backup (doubles as fish deco team) We can play around with this configuration,1 x snorkler (doubles as fish deco team).
We will need to charter 2 boats, which locally cost about $ 400 for half a day, don't know how much it will cost in Mauritius. One will be used for the deep team and back up divers and the other surface emergency support.
Gas bill will be as follows per day.
Deep divers gas fills will cost $ 35 - 40 per day ( trimix and back up gas )
Back up dives gas fills will cost $ 15 - 20 per day (diving nitrox )
We have worked out that locally in South Africa we are looking at R 12000 / Approximately $ 1200 a day to do a dive beyond 80 m.
This total excludes the transport and care of the fish until they are able to be exported and also excludes flights and accommodation and the transportation of all the necessary dive equipment.
So basically, how many people would be interested in a Debelius at $ 8k?
copps
Premium Member
Being one of the biggest angelfish fans myself, I absolutely love your enthusiasm and planning, but in my opinion targeting Centropyge debelius with this model will not work. People are equating Centropyge boylei and this species... especially after Rufus and company did great work on their recent collection... but there is one major difference between these two species that makes a profitable collection trip much less of a possibility... to this day a location has not been found where there is a decent population density of Centropyge debelius...
The true discoverer of this species, Daniel Pelicier, who all of the Mauritius guys know well, was the sole collector of this species... one of the many collectors in this world we hobbyists owe so much to that was smart (and crazy) enough to navigate INSANE depths diving air... in his over a decade of collecting the species he never collected more than a dozen C. debelius in one YEAR. He would only target the juveniles also... a smart idea.
Even when Helmut Debelius and Rich Pyle went on a collecting expedition to target this species to get it described... they collected a grand total of ONE specimen... and barely one.
By no means am I trying to discourage you... I'm just giving my advice. There is somewhere a population stronghold of Centropyge debelius in some yet to be discovered place... there may be that place on Mauritius! If you wanted to make this successful it would require some test dives for sure to even have a chance... if your goal is to catch a debelius that's possible... if it's to be profitable on that first trip that is much less of a possibility...
What Rufus and company have done with the peppermints is so much harder and more tedious than I think many people believe... above I talk only about FINDING Centropyge debelius... all of the added logistics afterwards are also very tough...
I was piloting the boat when Rufus caught his first Genicanthus personatus in Hawaii over six years ago... they've caught just two since (I believe)... and they live there in West Oahu and dive all the time looking for this species... personatus are just not a common species in the Main Hawaiian Islands... even at depth... Centropyge debelius is no doubt more common than that but is nothing like the densities of C. boylei seen...
Centropyge debelius is an amazing species though! I owned a pair for a VERY short period of time that Frank Baensch bred years ago... I saw the beauties in Hawaii myself, and they were shipped to me just after my return... the shipment was handled horribly though and the fish lasted just a few hours... In Japan I saw a STUD male in a tank in Kyoto... the same guy that bought the personatus mentioned above...
Copps
Blue Ring Sting
New member
Hi John
Since we have been technical diving we have been looking for a species of angelfish or any other rare and deep fish to acquire. Logistics have been a huge hurdle for us, because collection of the Boylei, Narcosis, Personatus or Abei is just not viable for us. To be able to get out to the Pacific to do the dive and still obtain all the necessary equipment just puts things too far out.
The options we had were to do a dive off a + 80 m here in South African tropical waters and see what we can find if anything. At R 12000 / $ 1200 a day to be hopeful was just not something we would like to do. 2 of my divers said that they did see some new fish when they did the Coelecanth dive but due to the location being a marine protected area, collection is prohibited. Our other option was to do a dive in Mauritius, I have put a lot of effort in to getting as much information as possible before we go on our trip and planned collection. I have been in discussion with a friend of mine who owns one of the dive centres on the island. He has informed me that a "few" have been spotted at about 50 m. He cannot confirm on how many are available but he does see them every now and then, he himself was not too keen on assisting me with a collection though, the locals are extremely against it as I have learnt when I contacted Daniel and Meneeka, both never responded. By the way, does anyone know the maximum depth that Daniel went to?
I know that the first trip would most likely not be profitable at all, my actual goal is to find a location to where they are in abundance, my friend has said that they have been seen in a few different locations, so our plan is to dive each spot a day to see what we can find. I know it is a long shot but if the Debelius is not found, who else knows what could be found at those depths.
Due to us only having between 12-15 minutes bottom time on a dive, our main goals are to use our cameras to get as much footage as possible, and once we ascend we will carefully go over the footage and see what was available and if it would be worthwhile returning to the location. We are only able to do 1 dive a day and don't want to waste our gases.
I know what Rufus does is not easy at all, the risks, logistics and cost involved is out of this world and to sometimes come up empty handed must be frustrating.
Right now, this seems to our only viable option, to travel to Palau, Tahiti, Cook Islands, or any other Pacific country doesn't seem viable. At this point we would like to do a dive and find something...
The Debelius is going to be a long shot, we have been told where we could "possibly" find them but as you said, there may be nothing but also there may be a a lot, lets hold thumbs and see how it goes.
We are going to be meeting up during next week to discuss everything and see if it is worthwhile pursuing. We have the guys who can do this and feel that it can work but if costs are too high and the likelihood of getting fish are low, we may have to abort.
As per our last discussion, I told you what I am looking to do and I would appreciate if you could PM me in other ideas that you may have.
Since we have been technical diving we have been looking for a species of angelfish or any other rare and deep fish to acquire. Logistics have been a huge hurdle for us, because collection of the Boylei, Narcosis, Personatus or Abei is just not viable for us. To be able to get out to the Pacific to do the dive and still obtain all the necessary equipment just puts things too far out.
The options we had were to do a dive off a + 80 m here in South African tropical waters and see what we can find if anything. At R 12000 / $ 1200 a day to be hopeful was just not something we would like to do. 2 of my divers said that they did see some new fish when they did the Coelecanth dive but due to the location being a marine protected area, collection is prohibited. Our other option was to do a dive in Mauritius, I have put a lot of effort in to getting as much information as possible before we go on our trip and planned collection. I have been in discussion with a friend of mine who owns one of the dive centres on the island. He has informed me that a "few" have been spotted at about 50 m. He cannot confirm on how many are available but he does see them every now and then, he himself was not too keen on assisting me with a collection though, the locals are extremely against it as I have learnt when I contacted Daniel and Meneeka, both never responded. By the way, does anyone know the maximum depth that Daniel went to?
I know that the first trip would most likely not be profitable at all, my actual goal is to find a location to where they are in abundance, my friend has said that they have been seen in a few different locations, so our plan is to dive each spot a day to see what we can find. I know it is a long shot but if the Debelius is not found, who else knows what could be found at those depths.
Due to us only having between 12-15 minutes bottom time on a dive, our main goals are to use our cameras to get as much footage as possible, and once we ascend we will carefully go over the footage and see what was available and if it would be worthwhile returning to the location. We are only able to do 1 dive a day and don't want to waste our gases.
I know what Rufus does is not easy at all, the risks, logistics and cost involved is out of this world and to sometimes come up empty handed must be frustrating.
Right now, this seems to our only viable option, to travel to Palau, Tahiti, Cook Islands, or any other Pacific country doesn't seem viable. At this point we would like to do a dive and find something...
The Debelius is going to be a long shot, we have been told where we could "possibly" find them but as you said, there may be nothing but also there may be a a lot, lets hold thumbs and see how it goes.
We are going to be meeting up during next week to discuss everything and see if it is worthwhile pursuing. We have the guys who can do this and feel that it can work but if costs are too high and the likelihood of getting fish are low, we may have to abort.
As per our last discussion, I told you what I am looking to do and I would appreciate if you could PM me in other ideas that you may have.
copps
Premium Member
Again, I encourage you guys 100%!:thumbsup: I give my advice to help you guys. Going to the Pacific is pointless for you guys... you are talking about your South African base as if it's a disadvantage... but use it to your advantage! The diversity at depth in the Indian Ocean is probably similar to the Pacific... it has not been explored as much though! Even over here by us in the Atlantic, where the diversity for some fish families is in the single digit percentages compared to the South Pacific... they are finding new species at depth. I almost never write in caps but I want to stress this...
THE TWILIGHT ZONE OF THE INDIAN OCEAN HAS A PLETHORA OF UNDISCOVERED SPECIES!
To me, you guys are putting the cart before the horse (not sure if you guys use that saying, but you could look it up). If I were you I would organize expeditions of just diving and perhaps collecting for science with chemicals first... To me this would be extremely gratifying... you could go to Mauritius and dive, but when you say you are going to look for a population stronghold of debelius there do you realize that Daniel has dived there for DECADES looking for this and it has not been found? Daniel has gone to over 100 meters also... again it's crazy but every good deepwater angelfish has some crazy (I say crazy in a respectful and envious manner!) person who has discovered or first collected it... Daniel with debelius... Chip Boylei with the peppermints and narcosis... Pat Colin with C. abei... Dennis King in your neck of the woods! Go find yours! Why not perhaps try Madagascar? If there is a stronghold of debelius my money would be there... there are so many places around you that need deep exploration!
If I were sitting a team down as you are the first thing I'd consider if everyone's motivation... if the motive is profit in the stages you are at then I'd change course right away... you guys are nowhere near that stage yet... look at all of the past collections and the drive for the first long while was PASSION... not profit... profit could come afterwards... but again you guys are not at that stage yet. Even if you found debelius on Mauritius it would be tough to have success without any local support.
I'll put my thinking cap on though for some more ideas... just for now throwing in my two... or three... cents on the matter.
Copps
Blue Ring Sting
New member
No definitely, I agree with you, we do have our advantages, but to collect a already discovered not so much. Our initial target is to collect an already discovered species as it will be "easier" than a newly discovered species.
I am a angelfish junkie! I love angelfish and plenty of other fish as well, but angelfish first. I would purely be doing this for the love of being able to collect it or find something new. However, my divers have full time jobs and other commitments as well, so it would purely be monetary for them. I am trying to educate them about different fish and try and change there outlook but at the end of the day I do not think anyone would quit there job to collect fish if it wasn't profitable.
Most of the collectors are in the South Pacific which is great for them as they are able to collect the Personatus, Abei, Boylei, etc. I know for a fact there is fish that have never been found in our waters at depths greater than 80m.
I understand what you mean about Daniel, he has been diving for them for years and still was only able to retrieve a few.
I have spoken to one of my suppliers in Madagascar but he is not too keen on doing this with me. He has mentioned something about the Debelius but whether that is true or not, I am not sure, his expedition was supposed to take place at the end of October. As with the Coelecanth dive, there was a lot of strange looking fish that I have never seen before or heard of before, so it may be an option to start here.
I appreciate your support and I do not take it as criticism, its sometimes easy to overlook the more important things, at certain times I think I will go down to 100 m and come up with 10 Debelius not realistic but you get my point.
I have been collecting for sometime now but I still believe we are a long way off, we have a lot of playing to do still.
We are actually quite blessed as we have both Atlantic and Indian Ocean on our costs so we may be able to find something new here. We are planning to do a few dives in Sodwana again as well as a few 80 - 100 m reefs. Maybe we do not need to look far to collect something rare or new.
I am a angelfish junkie! I love angelfish and plenty of other fish as well, but angelfish first. I would purely be doing this for the love of being able to collect it or find something new. However, my divers have full time jobs and other commitments as well, so it would purely be monetary for them. I am trying to educate them about different fish and try and change there outlook but at the end of the day I do not think anyone would quit there job to collect fish if it wasn't profitable.
Most of the collectors are in the South Pacific which is great for them as they are able to collect the Personatus, Abei, Boylei, etc. I know for a fact there is fish that have never been found in our waters at depths greater than 80m.
I understand what you mean about Daniel, he has been diving for them for years and still was only able to retrieve a few.
I have spoken to one of my suppliers in Madagascar but he is not too keen on doing this with me. He has mentioned something about the Debelius but whether that is true or not, I am not sure, his expedition was supposed to take place at the end of October. As with the Coelecanth dive, there was a lot of strange looking fish that I have never seen before or heard of before, so it may be an option to start here.
I appreciate your support and I do not take it as criticism, its sometimes easy to overlook the more important things, at certain times I think I will go down to 100 m and come up with 10 Debelius not realistic but you get my point.
I have been collecting for sometime now but I still believe we are a long way off, we have a lot of playing to do still.
We are actually quite blessed as we have both Atlantic and Indian Ocean on our costs so we may be able to find something new here. We are planning to do a few dives in Sodwana again as well as a few 80 - 100 m reefs. Maybe we do not need to look far to collect something rare or new.
Blue Ring Sting
New member
But if it happens ( big IF )... How many will go to the US, I have no idea, most likely the Asian market will take whatever we can get.
Blue Ring Sting
New member
John has put a lot in perspective for me. Logistically a collection in Mauritius would of been the easier of the deep and rare angels as it is not too far away from us. But then again there is an uncharted coastline of both the Indian and Atlantic oceans. So we are possibly gonna start here first. I think both are going to be a shot in the dark, going to Mauritius does not guarantee a collection of Debelius angels and diving to 80 - 100 m does not guarantee a new species in South Africa, I think we have a decent chance here and it is not going to cost us as much if we had to fly to a different location.
Vili_Shark
New member
How can you collect and ship in Mauritius?
From what i know you need special permits.
John gave a good insight on this fish, I'd think the same very low odds to get some unless you really know the spot.
The guy who used to get them is one of the best divers and collectors in the world.
If I were you, I'd target the Pacific, Marshall Isl deep water fish have a long waiting list in Asia.
There are many more.
From what i know you need special permits.
John gave a good insight on this fish, I'd think the same very low odds to get some unless you really know the spot.
The guy who used to get them is one of the best divers and collectors in the world.
If I were you, I'd target the Pacific, Marshall Isl deep water fish have a long waiting list in Asia.
There are many more.
THE TRUTH....
my country India have two reef zones(Andaman and Lakshadweep),having dozens of atolls,banks and reefs...to the best of my knowledge no deep diving(100m+) ever has taken place for species survey....
and same goes for most reefs in Philippines and Indonesia....
Blue Ring Sting
New member
The permits are not a problem, the travelling out and attempting a collection poses more of a problem with me.
John did make extremely valid points, from what we have been told from our Mauritian support is that he does occasionally see the Debelius Angelfish at depths of about 50 m, I am extremely hopeful though. But the ocean is big and who knows....
The problem is that the Pacific is very far away from us, we did costing in Palau to attempt to collect the Abei and flights alone were going to cost about $ 4500 there and back per person. Which already puts alot of pressure on the expedition.
Indonesia and Philippines look like viable options but I would prefer to try closer to home first, South Africa, Red Sea, Mauritius, Madagascar, Reunion, etc.
Certain guys in my dive team has been doing technical dives for years mostly focusing on wreck dives and have never done a collection of fish before, most of my collections are done at 50 m so a collection at depths of 80 - 100m is something new for me as well.
We have options of both Atlantic and Indian so we will attempt a collection here and see what we can find.
I'm optimistic, I have never attempted a deep sea collection as of yet and I am really excited, the risks and costs are extremely high but it was always gonna be to start doing this.
If anyone has more input I would appreciate your feedback.
John did make extremely valid points, from what we have been told from our Mauritian support is that he does occasionally see the Debelius Angelfish at depths of about 50 m, I am extremely hopeful though. But the ocean is big and who knows....
The problem is that the Pacific is very far away from us, we did costing in Palau to attempt to collect the Abei and flights alone were going to cost about $ 4500 there and back per person. Which already puts alot of pressure on the expedition.
Indonesia and Philippines look like viable options but I would prefer to try closer to home first, South Africa, Red Sea, Mauritius, Madagascar, Reunion, etc.
Certain guys in my dive team has been doing technical dives for years mostly focusing on wreck dives and have never done a collection of fish before, most of my collections are done at 50 m so a collection at depths of 80 - 100m is something new for me as well.
We have options of both Atlantic and Indian so we will attempt a collection here and see what we can find.
I'm optimistic, I have never attempted a deep sea collection as of yet and I am really excited, the risks and costs are extremely high but it was always gonna be to start doing this.
If anyone has more input I would appreciate your feedback.
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