chaetodon larvatus progress

[skraj011]

Over the last few months LADD has sold a handful of orange-faced butterfly fish (C. larvatus).

I think it would be interesting to hear about how they are doing.

I received mine 3 weeks ago and put him in my 90 gallon fowlr. It has about 40 pounds of live rock with sand, sump but no skimmer, no fuge yet. It has been up and running for ~2 years. the preexisting inhabitants were: a golden pygmy angel, a hologymnosus wrasse, 3 smallish carberryi anthias, and a diamond goby.

First off he is quite skittish. He didn't eat anything offered for the first 2-3 days, i tried frozen hikari spirulina brine, frozen ocean nutrition mysis (both of which he was apparently eating at LADD), a variety of flakes,and NLS pellets.

then I tried nutramar ova which he will eat, but not super aggressively. he will occassionally sample a brine shrimp, but invariably spits it out. He constantly scans the rock and picks at it.

Luckily, there has been 0 aggression between any of the inhabitants, as I don't think he could survive if he was getting bullied. He doesn't seem to have lost any weight and isn't showing any obvious signs of stress or disease.

 

[SDguy]

I talked about mine here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20182212&postcount=40

 

[jjk_reef00]

I bought one and have had it in qt for 3 or so weeks, tried over 10 different types of food. He took maybe one or 2 small pecks at clam, looked at it a lot but never ate it. I smeared a variety of different foods into some dead sps coral skeletons. He sampled 2 or 3 different foods but spit out everything. If he didn't spit it out he didn't take a large bite. He sampled some mysis floating a few times but didn't swallow that either. Mine also picks at the rock, but I don't expect this fish to last 3 months.

I'm a little disapointed that LA says they have these fish eating mysis, yet no one who bought one has had any success.
I personally will not try this fish again.
Hopefully others have had more sucess than me.

 

[Big E]

I think LA dd should have a video attached to the sales post, showing these fish are actually eating mysis..............otherwise they shouldn't be selling them..........it's irresponsible.

I wouldn't sell any butterfly unless I could prove they are eating meaty foods, like clams, scallops & shrimp.

 

[jer77]

I have some experience with acclimating butterflies, like semilarvatus, falcula and others. Not as much as others. I can say a large tank with peaceful fish can help in the long run. If its at least interested in what the others are eating, time may convince it. Its usually a bad sign if it slowly just gives up its all curiosity in the mysis and other foods and pecks at the rocks. I have no exp with larvatus, but it sure is a pretty fish and I wish you luck!

 

[skraj011]

I bought one and have had it in qt for 3 or so weeks, tried over 10 different types of food. He took maybe one or 2 small pecks at clam, looked at it a lot but never ate it. I smeared a variety of different foods into some dead sps coral skeletons. He sampled 2 or 3 different foods but spit out everything. If he didn't spit it out he didn't take a large bite. He sampled some mysis floating a few times but didn't swallow that either. Mine also picks at the rock, but I don't expect this fish to last 3 months.

I'm a little disapointed that LA says they have these fish eating mysis, yet no one who bought one has had any success.
I personally will not try this fish again.
Hopefully others have had more sucess than me.

If you haven't already, try nutramar ova.

I am planning on trying some capelin roe (reef caviar).

Is he/she getting skinny?

 

[jjk_reef00]

I've tried ova, and the h2o eggs. Only will pick it off the rock one bite but won't go after it again. The fish is getting skinny. I've seen this behavior before with very large B/F's. They just never take to captive foods and waste away over 1-3 months.

I was going to try reef caviar because I've heard great things about it. I tried ordering it to recieve it the same Sat as the lavartus, but LA doesn't ship frozen for Sat delivery...

 

[Fishfirst]

I have seen these fish take mysis brine and ova myself at LADD in the past. What they do there is neither unethical or irresponsible with these fish. I honestly think that a lot of people don't realize that this is still a very very difficult species to keep eating or not, they don't ship very well, and need a very skilled and dedicated aquarist to actually keep these fish. They have the proper warnings on the actual fish. I see no wrong by them, and I am now a competitor so I am fairly unbiased.

 

[Big E]

I have seen these fish take mysis brine and ova myself at LADD in the past. What they do there is neither unethical or irresponsible with these fish. I honestly think that a lot of people don't realize that this is still a very very difficult species to keep eating or not, they don't ship very well, and need a very skilled and dedicated aquarist to actually keep these fish. They have the proper warnings on the actual fish. I see no wrong by them, and I am now a competitor so I am fairly unbiased.

What skill does it take to drop mysis or ova in the tank? Even if you can do it all day I see no special skill involved there. If special care or steps neeed to be taken why not have instructions or advice to give the buyer on how to keep this fish?

If the fish ships poorly it shouldn't be sold until they can figure out how to reduce the shipping stress. If it made it half way across the world how come it can't handle a shorter trip within the states?

I'll also stand by the opinion.......... in my experiance no BF species is going to live long term on mysis & ova. They need something more substantial & meaty.

We just see things differently on this.........not saying you are wrong, but I'd like to see more follow through or help if vendors are going to sell a fish like this. They'd sell a lot more BF's if people could keep them alive as others would try them.


Right now, I know of only one success story on these BF's by an overseas hobbyist & he hasn't updated his thread in months.

 

[SDguy]

I honestly think that a lot of people don't realize that this is still a very very difficult species to keep eating or not, they don't ship very well, and need a very skilled and dedicated aquarist to actually keep these fish.

Other than the feeding part, I found nothing particularly difficult about the fish. It was disease free, shipped beautifully, and not shy at all. The only problem was that it wouldn't swallow anything I fed it. As I said in my original post about mine, I think maybe mine could have made it, had I worked from home, and been able to feed it minced clam every hour or so throughout the day.

 

[DFS]

Greetings,
I just wanted to chime in here and try and add some insight and shed some light on the topic of Expert Only Butterflyfishes. The majority of Expert Only species of Butterflyfishes are labeled as such because they have very specialized diets in the wild. Most are obligate corallivore fishes and consume a variety of large polyp stony corals species, or small polyp species such as Acropora.

With advancements in nutrition and much better understanding of the care and husbandry requirements of marine ornamental species, some very advanced marine aquarists are trying to break new ground in maintaining fishes such as Orange Spotted Filefish (Oxymonacanthus longirostris), Red Sea Four Line Cleaner Wrasse (Larabicus quadrilineatus), and a few other more challenging species.

I have been asked for years to provide specific species of fishes that are challenging to keep. To appease the very advanced hobbyist, we only offer these obligate corallivore butterflyfishes in the Divers Den section of LiveAquaria.com from time to time. The reason for this is I feel much more comfortable in offering for sale such challenging fishes, because my staff and I have had the opportunity to handle and care for them personally. If we are not 100% confident a fish is feeding properly and exhibits normal behavior for the particular species, and overall is not in optimum health, it doesn’t get posted in the Divers Den for sale, and that hold true for the handful of Chaetodon larvatus we have offered as well.

I feel with the knowledge base, holding systems and infrastructure we have in place where we house and condition all of the Divers Den fishes, we do our very best to be a solid outlet of distribution for the advanced hobbyist to procure a healthy, conditioned and quarantined fish through our Divers Den section of LiveAquaria.com. As far as being irresponsible, I think we have proven ourselves over the years to be one of the MOST responsible suppliers of marine ornamentals in the country.

The Orangeface Butterflyfish (Chaetodon larvatus) is a spectacular fish from the Red Sea that is an obligate corallivore and resides on coral rich, Acropora spp. dominated, fore reefs in the wild. These fishes consume Acropora spp. just like the Orange Spotted Filefish (Oxymonacanthus longirostris) in the wild, and are surprisingly relatively good shippers. Orangeface Butterflies are a very abundant species in the wild, and in no way are they pressured from overfishing. What better fish to offer the experienced hobbyist that has the skill, understanding, and patience to work with such a beautiful species to break new ground?

We have very few problems getting these fishes to consume prepared foods. The hurdle, just like Peter has stated, is that they need to eat constantly throughout the day, and that is the challenge. Additionally, its not uncommon for this species and other obligate corallivores to show no interest in foods until they feel comfortable in their new surroundings. Perfect water chemistry, cooler and very stable temperatures, maintaining with non-threatening tank mates in quarantine, along with offering meaty foods throughout the day is the ideal ticket to having success with this challenging species.

I would strongly encourage anyone who doesn’t have the understanding, experience, or time to properly feed this species throughout the day, to select a different species that may be better suited for your home aquarium.

Happy Fishkeeping!

Kevin Kohen

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Kevin,

Thank you for the excellent explanation. It is easy for hobbyists to lose sight of how frequently fish feed in the wild as compared to most home tanks and the impact that.can have on adaptation to captive life. Some fish learn to gorge themselves when food is available whereas others don't learn or cannot survive that way. Copperband butterflyfish have those traits, albeit to a lesser extent.

 

[Big E]

Hi Kevin in reference to this------------

Perfect water chemistry, cooler and very stable temperatures, maintaining with non-threatening tank mates in quarantine, along with offering meaty foods throughout the day is the ideal ticket to having success with this challenging species.

What are these perfect water parameters & what temperature & temp stability range? It would help if you could post some specific numbers.

What meaty foods are you referring to?

How many times per day do you recommend?

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

I interpreted perfect water chemistry to mean at least in part a fully cycled qt with a biofilter that can readily handle the bioload that is added. A lot of difficult fish (e.g., cbbs) seem to stop eating with just trace amounts of ammonia and that can frequently lead to a fish that never eats and just dies. It is easy for a qt to have ammonia when it has a limited biofilter and 2-3 fish are introduced. Perhaps it makes sense to put as much food in the qt as you would feed the fish for a week or two to make sure the biofilter can handle the load when you anticipate bringing in very sensitive fish.

Cooler water holds more oxygen and thus could be an advantage to a stressed fish but that can be difficult to maintain in a qt. Maybe put the qt in the basement in the summer. Does LA or DD keep their holding or quarantine tanks at say 73 or 74 degrees?

 

[DFS]

Hi Kevin in reference to this------------

What are these perfect water parameters & what temperature & temp stability range? It would help if you could post some specific numbers.

What meaty foods are you referring to?

How many times per day do you recommend?

Ideal Water Parameters:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com//Pic/article.cfm?c=3578&aid=1079

Stability in Water Chemistry and Temperature:

• Well cycled media in a bio-filter that has been fully inoculated with nitrifying bacteria for several months.
  • This can be accomplished by maintaining sponges, glass blown media, porous live rock, etc in the sump of the display aquarium, which can then be moved to a QT tank when needed.

• No more than one degree fluctuation per day.

Exact Water Temperature:

• Outlined in the link above for a temperature range between 72-78 degrees.

• Like Dr Colliebreath stated, maintain towards the lower end of the range makes it easier to keep adequate DO levels.

• We maintain our medication system, quarantine system, and main fish system in our facility at 77-78 degrees, and utilize Ozone in our QT and Main Fish System to help break down organics and keep the DO level of 6-7 ppm.

Ideal Meaty Foods:

• Chopped mysis, Ova, shaved clam, shaved cockle, shaved raw (uncooked) shrimp, enriched artemia, chopped blackworms, cyclops, meat based prepared foods from major manufacturers that include a combination of the above ingredients.

• Utilizing a good enrichment technique is also ideal through the use of Selcon, Beta Glucan, and vitamin C.

Number of Recommended Feedings:

• On the hour during the day if that can be achieved. These fishes pic and never gorge at one time. The balance and challenge is feeding enough foods while not altering water chemistry and maintaining proper pH.

What is outlined above, in my opinion, are the fundamentals that all advanced fish enthusiasts should know and follow when trying to break new ground with more challenging species.

Kindest Regards,
Kevin Kohen

 

[MrTuskfish]

I've never kept any of the obligate corallivore butterflyfish; but do keep several fish that are considered ''difficult" at best. IMO & IME; it is much easier to get any fish eating in a proper QT than a DT and this is especially true for skittish fish and reluctant feeders. Of course, this is just one reason to use a QT and I believe DD suggests that a QT be used with their fish too.
I've been doing business with the F&S Companies since they were just a 3 Vet office in Minocqua; I doubt there is a more responsible and customer-service oriented business , in any field, anywhere. (Not looking for freebies, Kevin!) If they say a fish is eating, its eating.
Not directed at anyone in particular; but do hobbyists really do enough research BEFORE buying a difficult/expert-only fish? Or any fish, for that matter? A few minutes of reading would tell anyone that keeping achaetodon larvatus isn't for most of us.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

I agree. IMO, in the case of difficult fish, adapting the fish in a qt to captive living and eating is as important as parasite control. I prefer to quarantine 2 or 3 fish at once so there is some companionship and a little bit of competition for food even if only implied by the presence of the other fish. That prepares the fish for the dt competition plus allows the introduction of two newcomers to the.dt at once to spread the welcoming posturing as pecking order is established.

 

[pencil3]

I also agree, having another fish that is already eating a mix of foods can help with a new arrival. For the fish that does refuse to eat you can always tube feed, it's not that difficult or time consuming, assuming that you do QT your new arrivals.

 

[Big E]

Thanks Kevin,

We maintain our medication system, quarantine system, and main fish system in our facility at 77-78 degrees, and utilize Ozone in our QT and Main Fish System to help break down organics and keep the DO level of 6-7 ppm.

This is the type of specific info that I was asking for.......thanks. That may help someone in the future.

Ideal Meaty Foods:
Chopped mysis, Ova, shaved clam, shaved cockle, shaved raw (uncooked) shrimp, enriched artemia, chopped blackworms, cyclops, meat based prepared foods from major manufacturers that include a combination of the above ingredients.
Utilizing a good enrichment technique is also ideal through the use of Selcon, Beta Glucan, and vitamin C.

That's a good list & what I was harping about above.........they need something meaty & substantial to be kept alive for years not months. It would have been nice if these fish were weaned onto more of those type of foods instead of just enriched mysis before being sold.

On the hour during the day if that can be achieved. These fishes pic and never gorge at one time

That makes it more clear.

Added comments-----------

I'm inquiring, searching & asking for info specific on this fish so people have a better chance to keep it alive long term. It has nothing to do with calling anyone out.

If BF's are healthy they will eat or sample foods......the key is finding what they like & how the food is presented........presentation is probably more important, especially if they are grown already & have been picking & not eating through the water column.

Anyone that is keeping C lavatus alive should share as much as possible. There is very little info available on long term success. If you do a search( RC won't allow direct link) you can find a guy overseas that is feeding clams........Ruditapes philippinarum which can be found for sale throughout Asia. I don't know if they are available in the states.

They are kept in a refugium like dispaly & there is ample flora and fauna in the aquariums should the fish need to graze, but the staple diet is the clams.

Weanig is the difficult part & the fish are aquired at a very small size........which I would think helps as they probably are more prone to eating any food that floats by when very small.

 

[SDguy]

Weaning is the difficult part & the fish are acquired at a very small size........which I would think helps as they probably are more prone to eating any food that floats by when very small.

I always go back and forth on this in my head. In theory it sounds great, but in practice one of the major issues I often experience with butterflies is that they can only swallow the TINIEST of food pieces. Couple this with a TINY individual, and you can see the problem.

A LFS here had a larvatus, twice the size of mine, that swallowed PE mysis... I still passed on it, after my experience.