I have a 4-5 inch bed of live sand mixed with crushed coral and aragonite...it's ugly and I wnat to start fresh or at least get the coral and shells out. I only have one fish left and am going reef. What's the best way without having to cyle the tank or is best just to drain the tank completely and start over? If i do the drain it what should I do with all of the live rock?
changing substrate
- Thread starter r1racer
- Start date
gotwake89
New member
I would probably keep as much water as possible if thats an option, similarly as to if you were moving the tank. If you have to, fill up a bunch of 5 gallon buckets or a large bin with the water you have to take out so that you aren't replacing more than like 50% of the water, plus it will save you salt. you will probably go through a mini-cycle upon removing all of your sand, however you still will have a lot of your bacteria on your live rock so it won't be a very large or long cycle if you have one. How big is the tank? and are you going to try to somehow filter the crushed coral out and save the aragonite or are you buying all new sand?
oscarinw
New member
Here my two cents. Unless you are trying to get rid of an organism that lives in your sand is almost pointless to get rid of it. Aragonite is probably a consensus among reefers. What I would do is take half of your water, put it in bins with your rock and your fish. Take a 20 gallon rubbermaid trash can and scoop all the sand out to it. Stir it in vigorously wit the rest of your water and give it a powerful rinse twice or 3 times. Discard all that rinse water. Clean the tank and put everything back in it, refill with RO and a good reef salt mix. You probably won't even see a new cycle.
Good luck with things.
Good luck with things.
I have MH and razors so I am thinking just about anything that will do well in the tank. I will probably start small with softies and shrooms and slowly graduate.
I have RO water and have had the tank for seven years. I never once saw coraline algae for some reason. When I first set the tank up it was iron rich crappy greenish brown well water. Also I read somewhere that if my water had copper in it at some point to start over. I don't know if I have ever treated it with copper to be honest but is this true?
Also, should I just clean and sift the sand that I have and sprinkle some fresh aragonite on top or replace completely? Finally, my live rocks have violet algae or bacteria on it that I hate. Should I still keep the rock "live" or let everything die off?
I will clean the sand and go with thinner bed and sprinkle some fresh aragonite on top. I am more concerned with the live rock having that violet bacteria crap all over it...
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125 gallon (6 ft) and i have 50 lbs on the way. I guess I'll clean and keep as much of the good stuff as possible. I have a new bucket of salt so that's not an issue and my ro makes 55 gallons a day. With that said would you drain completely? How do i get rid of the purple algae/bacteria?
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The easiest and best method (in my opinion) is to use a 1/2" or 3/4" hose and siphon out no more than 1/4 and 1/3 of your sand bed at a time and then replacing the old sand with new washed dry sand. Wait a week between removals for the organisms living in the sand to have a chance to migrate into the new sand. I like to start by removing the middle 1/3 and then after a week removing one of the side sections. You will need to have premixed/preheated water on hand as the water that is removed during siphoning will be fouled by the detritus stored up in the sand bed.
I am still a rookie, so take my advice with a grain of salt. That appears to be Coraline Algae, and many aquarist strive to grow it in their tanks. That being said, if you want to get rid of your sand, I would do one of two things:
1) Slowly vacuum it out during regular water changes,
2.) Set up a temporary establishment for your 1 fish. Take all the sand out in one go. Wait for what will probably be a small cycle, and then start again. Keep your sump, pumps, skimmer, heater,and powerheads running, and your rock covered in water.
1) Slowly vacuum it out during regular water changes,
2.) Set up a temporary establishment for your 1 fish. Take all the sand out in one go. Wait for what will probably be a small cycle, and then start again. Keep your sump, pumps, skimmer, heater,and powerheads running, and your rock covered in water.
coralsnaked
New member
My vote would be a pretty significant case of Cyano bacteria. I think I would do a good ChemiClean on the tank. And wait for the ChemiClean to finish up according to directions when it's time to do the 20% water change I would suck the clear water out down to about 2" above the substrate carefully not to disturb it. Placing the water in large igloo ice chest I would then remove the live rock and rinse in some new saltwater and then place in the igloos full of tank water. Then I would dig out that old substrate, and use a shop vac to remove the remaining water and substrate. I would wipe down tank w/ vinegar solution and then RO. Place rock back into tank, and then put in a 1 -2" bed of washed and drained dry aragonite medium grain sand. Put back in reserved tank water and finish filling w/ new saltwater, usually takes about 20% of volume.
I would imagine the rock is full of PO4 and would run some GFO or other Po4 reducing media to keep new substrate from picking up all that PO4. I would also make sure that all mechanical filtration is clean. Sump I would not disturb too much. Also would add some live bacteria after filling the tank to compete w/ any remaining Cyano and to clear the water by replenishing any lost bacteria. I would replace CUC and single fish and wait about two weeks for tank to settle down. But i would assume there to be no new cycle and by cleaning tank and filtration and changing substrate this should eliminate any Cyano from returning.
Merry Skerry
Definitely not coraline as the rookie thinks (btw its been so long I have forgotten eveything I know)...I have wanted that stuff for the longest time and only managed a small 2 inch purple patch on one of my rocks.
So I ordered the chemiclean but can you provide some clarification? Are you saying do the chemiclean, wait the 48 hours and then drain the tank just above the substrate? You wouldn't scrub the rocks? Do you guys sit your rock on your substrate or glass?
What are the downsides of a complete drain, cleaned out sandbed without letting the rock die off? I really don't want anything in my tank that shouldn't be there. Also, I have one layer of bio balls and about an inch of silt on the bottom of my sump. Would you keep or clean the bio balls?
What is CUC, P04, GFO?
If your tank is new or you have made big changes, you are supposed to have algae blooms. They will fix themselves and treating them will just make another identical algae bloom 1 month down the road for most common pest algae.
If you want to change your substrate make sure you keep as much water as possible and store all your liverock in it with a heater and powerhead, this way you will have no dieoff. Reusing old sand is a tricky business as you can not prevent a dieoff.
I don't find your substrate ugly at all btw. That powder fine sand might look great on photos but when your livestock has made craters all over it and there is a big piece of fish poop in each and every one it doesn't look all that great
I had powdery white sand in a tank years ago and never again!
You do not need bio balls in a reef tank and if you are running a skimmer the balls are doing their best at rendering your skimmer useless by converting dirt to ammonia etc before your skimmer can just pull it out. An inch of silt should never be anywhere in a reef system....EVER!...get it out.
and the abbr.
CUC = Clean up Crew
P04 is...cough...phosphate...or was it nitrate...lol...5 bucks on phosphate.
GFO Granular Ferr....something.... oxide Basically a Phosphate remover.
If you want to change your substrate make sure you keep as much water as possible and store all your liverock in it with a heater and powerhead, this way you will have no dieoff. Reusing old sand is a tricky business as you can not prevent a dieoff.
I don't find your substrate ugly at all btw. That powder fine sand might look great on photos but when your livestock has made craters all over it and there is a big piece of fish poop in each and every one it doesn't look all that great
I had powdery white sand in a tank years ago and never again!You do not need bio balls in a reef tank and if you are running a skimmer the balls are doing their best at rendering your skimmer useless by converting dirt to ammonia etc before your skimmer can just pull it out. An inch of silt should never be anywhere in a reef system....EVER!...get it out.
and the abbr.
CUC = Clean up Crew
P04 is...cough...phosphate...or was it nitrate...lol...5 bucks on phosphate.
GFO Granular Ferr....something.... oxide
Basically a Phosphate remover.
coralsnaked
New member
.Yeah if you want to save your live rocks and not dry them out to base rock and start completely over I am saying ChemiClean them and the tank prior to pulling out the substrate. The directions on ChemiClean are pretty specific and the last step is to do a 20% water change. Follow the ChemiClean instructions but prior to doing the water change follow my directions on pulling out the substrate and replacing it. Then when you refill tank with saved clear water you will be about 20% short and can use fresh made up salt water to finish the fill which will act as the 20% water change. However if you desire to just pull the whole thing down dry it out and do an acid wash, and rinse then dry the rock. That will take care of Cyano algae, bacteria and PO4 (Phosphates), then no need for ChemiClean.
Yes I sit my rock on the glass so as to not let it become unstable if something burrows into the substrate. Moving rocks break glass.
Downside of a complete drain with cleaned out sand bed with not letting the rock die off, is whatever is bound up in the rocks IE Phosphates is still going to be in there and you will have to deal with it. In addition if there are any other unwanted pests besides Cyano then that will need to be dealt with as well. Anything from Aptasia to Mojono to hair algae to Bryopsis to other critters like fire worms to mantis shrimp and a bevy of other unwanted creatures. This is why many people will only start a tank with dry rock and dry sand as to eliminate the chances of having many of these pests. However anytime you add a coral or a snail or a crab or other invert you risk the chance of introducing these guys anyway. But fact is most of this stuff comes in on live rock. Upside is no new cycling period. Cycling dry rock will take weeks and weeks.
I would ditch the bioballs not worth the trouble, nitrate factories that have to be cleaned routinely and not needed if you have lots of rock. Clean the silt out of the sump. If you start over w/ dry rock then start the sump over as well. Whatever would be in the display is most likely in the sump anyway. And while you’re at it be sure to start a quarantine tank as well for any fish you purchase it will need to cycle as well. And RX dip any corals you buy prior to placing into tank to prevent any pests from entering tank that way.
Merry Skerry and good luck
Yes I sit my rock on the glass so as to not let it become unstable if something burrows into the substrate. Moving rocks break glass.
Downside of a complete drain with cleaned out sand bed with not letting the rock die off, is whatever is bound up in the rocks IE Phosphates is still going to be in there and you will have to deal with it. In addition if there are any other unwanted pests besides Cyano then that will need to be dealt with as well. Anything from Aptasia to Mojono to hair algae to Bryopsis to other critters like fire worms to mantis shrimp and a bevy of other unwanted creatures. This is why many people will only start a tank with dry rock and dry sand as to eliminate the chances of having many of these pests. However anytime you add a coral or a snail or a crab or other invert you risk the chance of introducing these guys anyway. But fact is most of this stuff comes in on live rock. Upside is no new cycling period. Cycling dry rock will take weeks and weeks.
I would ditch the bioballs not worth the trouble, nitrate factories that have to be cleaned routinely and not needed if you have lots of rock. Clean the silt out of the sump. If you start over w/ dry rock then start the sump over as well. Whatever would be in the display is most likely in the sump anyway. And while you’re at it be sure to start a quarantine tank as well for any fish you purchase it will need to cycle as well. And RX dip any corals you buy prior to placing into tank to prevent any pests from entering tank that way.
Merry Skerry and good luck
Jesus...I thought this was going to be quick and easy. My tank is 7-8 yrs old and I haven't made any changes other than letting my MH run 24/7 for about 2 weeks without knowing. I have no idea what the hell is in the tank as I have neglected it for the last 4 years although all of my fish seemed healthy (until the power went out). I have seen worms all over the place in the pasat along with their tunnels in the sand. I guess I'll try the treatment, save the water and ditch the sand. Still clean with vinegar or do i need something else?
Worms are most often a good thing if that is what you were refering to with "treatment".
I think your tank looks great, minus the cyano part. If I were you I would simply syphon it out as soon as it builds up (or blow it off with a power head and let a mechanical filter pick it up), do a few big water changes and add a phosphate remover in a media reactor or bag. (Maybe increase flow??) ....and get that silt out, it is probably pouring nutrients into your water. Cyano is one of the best Phosphate removers there are, as long as you get it out of the tank.
But really, I can not see why you need to change out anything major, looks good to me!
I think your tank looks great, minus the cyano part. If I were you I would simply syphon it out as soon as it builds up (or blow it off with a power head and let a mechanical filter pick it up), do a few big water changes and add a phosphate remover in a media reactor or bag. (Maybe increase flow??) ....and get that silt out, it is probably pouring nutrients into your water. Cyano is one of the best Phosphate removers there are, as long as you get it out of the tank.
But really, I can not see why you need to change out anything major, looks good to me!
I think it looks natural but like ****. Treatment was referring to the cyano. I def want to get rid of that but more importantly, kill anything that maybe detrimental to coral. How much flow do I need? I have two tunzes.
I just want advice on the safest way to turn this thing into a successful reef system. Some say clean the sand and others say replace it all. Everyone seems to think I should keep most of the water and rock so I will. I don't want to do all of this work and spend this money and have a failed system because of something I could have fixed before all of the stock goes in. The fish is in a quarantine tank now so I can do whatever.
As of now the plan is to treat the tank, save the water and rock, move and clean out the sump and take out the bio balls. I will figure out the substrate later. Any downside to one return line near the overflow box?
FIrst of all, The Cyano is there because you have too much phosphates compared to nitrates (probably 0). If you treat your tank for the cyano and do not fix this problem it will just come back. Syphon it out and add a phosphate remover is by far the best way to take care of cyano long term....and all the quick ways suck! Having said that, Chemiclean is basically an oxidizer so it is fairly harmless and will do a little spring cleaning in your tank as well as temporarily kill the cyano. THis is one of the most common problems in the hobby and there are snake oils a plenty and probably 800 threads here on RC about it with people recommending this product or that product. Most of these products vary from useless to directly harmfull.
Regarding the substrate, if you do decide to change it, throw the old one out unless you have time to let a cycle happen in your tank. A lot of stuff in a substrate that a quick rinse will not take out..or a really long rinse for that sake. Once you churn it around all hell usually breaks lose
No real problem with having the overflow near return as long as it isn't "upflow" from it. No point having intake pull in 50% fresh newly skimmed water but with the quick movement of water in a reef tank this idea that they are supposed to be in opposite corners is just silly.
Having said that, Chemiclean is basically an oxidizer so it is fairly harmless and will do a little spring cleaning in your tank as well as temporarily kill the cyano. THis is one of the most common problems in the hobby and there are snake oils a plenty and probably 800 threads here on RC about it with people recommending this product or that product. Most of these products vary from useless to directly harmfull. Regarding the substrate, if you do decide to change it, throw the old one out unless you have time to let a cycle happen in your tank. A lot of stuff in a substrate that a quick rinse will not take out..or a really long rinse for that sake. Once you churn it around all hell usually breaks lose
No real problem with having the overflow near return as long as it isn't "upflow" from it. No point having intake pull in 50% fresh newly skimmed water but with the quick movement of water in a reef tank this idea that they are supposed to be in opposite corners is just silly.
crazylawyer
New member
I have to wonder if anyone is reading the OP's posts. As I interpret them, he has a 7-8 year old, 4-5" sandbed in a former FOWLR tank. Presumably heavily fed, as FO tanks are, with minimal FOWLR circulation. ( which alone could explain the cyno)
You can't "wash" the phosphate out of that substrate to which it is bound. If you replace the water, it will leach into the new water column and cause future headaches. And even properly washing the detritus out of 300 POUNDS of crushed coral would take days of work and a lot more than a 20 gallon rubbermaid. And allow about a week of celibacy before the old tank stink gets out of your skin.
You have two reasonable alternatives. Leave the sandbed alone and concentrate on cleaning up the cyno. That's another thread, and there are plenty of them here. Although I go along with the consensus that a fine aragonite is the ideal substrate, IME crushed coral grows 'pods like crazy.
Far better would be to ditch the old sand- saving a cup or two FROM THE TOP to seed the new substrate. Fine oolithic aragonite was 0.75 lb when I last bought some at a chain pet store in July, and you only need about 125 lbs for a 2" bed. You will spend a lot more than that on GFO if you keep the old substrate. And you should cook your rock ( also another thread). I am a recovering overfeeder (cause the fishies so cute) and in my evil days had to cook my rock about every five years.
I am known for being frugal-ok, cheap-- and I've washed a lot of substrate in the past. It just ain't worth it.
You can't "wash" the phosphate out of that substrate to which it is bound. If you replace the water, it will leach into the new water column and cause future headaches. And even properly washing the detritus out of 300 POUNDS of crushed coral would take days of work and a lot more than a 20 gallon rubbermaid. And allow about a week of celibacy before the old tank stink gets out of your skin.
You have two reasonable alternatives. Leave the sandbed alone and concentrate on cleaning up the cyno. That's another thread, and there are plenty of them here. Although I go along with the consensus that a fine aragonite is the ideal substrate, IME crushed coral grows 'pods like crazy.
Far better would be to ditch the old sand- saving a cup or two FROM THE TOP to seed the new substrate. Fine oolithic aragonite was 0.75 lb when I last bought some at a chain pet store in July, and you only need about 125 lbs for a 2" bed. You will spend a lot more than that on GFO if you keep the old substrate. And you should cook your rock ( also another thread). I am a recovering overfeeder (cause the fishies so cute) and in my evil days had to cook my rock about every five years.
I am known for being frugal-ok, cheap-- and I've washed a lot of substrate in the past. It just ain't worth it.
Ok, I have moved my sump /overflow and now have one line feeding the tank. More tidy and better access. I also pulled down my drywall and reframed the the top plate with treated wood and put up a vapor barrier since all of it was rotten (we live and learn).
So siphon the water out first and then treat or do it while it's in the tank? Cyano, chemiclean or what?:worried:
I am defintely not leaving the crushed coral so I guess I'll replace it all. I have 40 lbs of this on the way. Anyone have any pics of it in their tank? Supposedly its whiter than their pic. Also, when I seed the substrate does it go on the bottom, top or does it matter?
http://www.reefrocks.net/index.php?...&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1
Going to research rock cooking:headwally:
