Check this out!!! Crazy

Reefahholic

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Snorvich, humblefish, dascamel, spar,...I actually got some pictures of ICH cysts that fell off my new snowflake last night.

I had the snowflake and a platinum in a 5/G. Both surprisingly looked really well in the store. I was sure they had ICH, Brook, or Velvet, but this was a shocker. Get this.

I checked on them like the next morning I think and the snowflake was super super covered with ICH and hyperventilating. I've never seen a fish so covered. One flawlessly beautiful, and the next covered heavy in ICH.

Ok...so I dose Cupramine to try and relieve the fish. I works nights and came home for lunch and turned light on. Now keep in mind this tank was freshly cleaned and sterilized. Bottom is painted solid black too. So you can see any detritus on bottom of tank.

So I flipped the light on and was shocked!!! Hundreds and hundreds if ICH parasites had dropped off the fish and were on the bottom of the tank.

There were so many that my snowflake died this morning. One day with that many straight killed him. Shocker!

Check out this pic bro!





Overwhelmed even after most had fell off!



His skin was all jacked up from the parasites eating him up.

 
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IMO, in a reef tank with a diverse and thriving sand bed, there got to be predator of the parasite living in the sand. From my long experience, when I have a thriving diverse Fauna and flora in my tank, I never hav eproblem with disease in fish, especially Ich. Even now when I have a fish with CIH in my DT, it just resolve after a few days. I do have cleaner shrimp pair in the tank, but I do not think that this is what cure my tank of Ich. I don't QT my fish, only put in fish that I see no obvious disease. In the last 10 years, I have never have a fish that died of Ich. I do have a few that I think died of old age. There are a few minor Ich case but not for a long time now.
 
IMO, in a reef tank with a diverse and thriving sand bed, there got to be predator of the parasite living in the sand. From my long experience, when I have a thriving diverse Fauna and flora in my tank, I never hav eproblem with disease in fish, especially Ich. Even now when I have a fish with CIH in my DT, it just resolve after a few days. I do have cleaner shrimp pair in the tank, but I do not think that this is what cure my tank of Ich. I don't QT my fish, only put in fish that I see no obvious disease. In the last 10 years, I have never have a fish that died of Ich. I do have a few that I think died of old age. There are a few minor Ich case but not for a long time now.

I'll agree, your tank is extremely established.

Minh, the fish can develop an immunity to ICH, but it will be present in your system even without visible signs. It can remain in the gills undetected.

Although you've been lucky this far, you should really consider setting up a small QT for new arrivals. Velvet and Brook are nasty and will possibly kill every fish in your tank. Both can take up to 3-4 weeks to show.

Be careful brother. You have some nice fish in that tank!
 
In my QT, Brook struck faster and harder than it ever did in the DT. I imagine smaller space and yes quite possibly less predators but even though they looked healthy, it didn't hit the rest of my fish hard until i QT'd them.

I definitely think it is possible for fish to resist certain parasites like Ich in the long term, but based on reading from the fish pathology book that was recommended and other studies, very likely Ich is still present in small numbers much like it is in the ocean.

Now, regarding the bottom of your tank, go buy a relatively cheap microscope. $150-200 on Amazon, it'll take a lot of the guesswork out of what we're looking at. Some parasites get larger than Ich, but we may just be looking at dead skin.
 
I don't think they are immune to Ich. Just that the cyst is eaten up by the animals in the tank/sand and rock and not many survive to re infect the fish. I don't know this is true, but it is likely.
Just like ants in the lawn eat up all the flea pupae before they hatch and get on the animal again (dog, cat, children what have you). If you spray and kill the ants, then you will have flea problem in your yard
 
I don't think they are immune to Ich. Just that the cyst is eaten up by the animals in the tank/sand and rock and not many survive to re infect the fish. I don't know this is true, but it is likely.
Just like ants in the lawn eat up all the flea pupae before they hatch and get on the animal again (dog, cat, children what have you). If you spray and kill the ants, then you will have flea problem in your yard

That's logical for sure. It's a very interesting little devil for sure.
 
I will have to say that i highly doubt those specks are ich. Ich is to small to be seen with the naked eye.

That's what I'm hearing. My question is...what are they? The Trophont stage is visible, but is it the ICH parasites themselves that are visible or just the symptoms of the parasites feeding.

What is it that is seen in that stage that looks like salt speckled on the fish? Is there any good documentation on the Trophont stage?
 
I think this will help all of us and refresh our memories. Great information with references. This is a write up that Advanced Aquarist did: Very good and interesting read. This is fact. No opinions.

Cryptocaryon irritans has a direct four-phase life cycle (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It does not have an intermediate host (i.e. snail, etc.) unlike some other fish parasites. The quadriphasic life cycle consists of both parasitic and off-host stages. These include the theront, protomont, tomont and trophont stages. The life cycle is usually 1 to 2 weeks at 24-27C (Colorni, 1992). The time frame of the life cycle can vary slightly between different isolates or variants of Cryptocaryon irritans (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). No dormant stage has been found in any study of its life cycle to date. However, Cryptocaryon irritans tomonts have an asynchronous excystment (hatching) time of 3 to 28 days (Colorni, 1985). The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium.

Hobbyists are often fooled into believing that an infection has subsided when the telltale white spots temporarily disappear. Trophonts mature and exit fish as part of the parasites natural life cycle before they form tomonts and reproduce. Generally, the white spots will reappear on the fish a few days later, usually in greater numbers.

The Trophont Or Parasitic Feeding Stage
Aquarists are probably most familiar with the trophont stage of Cryptocaryon irritans. This is the feeding phase of the life cycle that manifests as visible salt-like white spots on the fish. Trophonts revolve continuously within the host’s outer body tissue layer or epithelium. They feed upon body fluids, tissue debris and whole cells of the fish (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). As the trophonts feed and grow in size the telltale white spots become increasingly easier to observe with the naked eye. Trophonts usually mature and exit the host after 3 to 7 days with a peak at 4 to 5 days (Colorni & Diamant, 1993. Colorni, 1985). Mature trophonts on the same fish usually exit within a narrow time frame of 16-18 hours. Trophonts will also leave the host earlier if the fish dies (Dickerson & Dawe, 1994). Trophonts that exit the fish prematurely due to the death of the host can form tomonts, but these tomonts are often immature and unable to produce live theronts.

The Protomont Or Stage After Exiting The Host And Prior To Encysting
When trophonts mature they exit the host and shed their cilia. This is the called the protomont stage. Protomonts are usually released from the host at about 5am or shortly before daylight (Burgess & Mathews, 1994b). It has not yet been established that protomonts exit the host during the cover of darkness as a strategy for survival. The timing may be merely coincidental. Protomonts then move along the substrate and rock for 2 to 8 hours before adhering to the surface.

The Tomont Or Reproductive Stage
Protomonts adhere to the substrate, rock, or other hard surface within the aquarium and encycst forming tomonts (Colorni, 1985). This is the reproductive stage. Tomonts generally then take between 8 to 12 hours to harden. Daughter cells forming within tomonts are known as tomites. The number of tomites produced by each tomont varies with the strain of Cryptocaryon irritans from less than 200 to more than 1,000 (Diggles & Adlard, 1997) Upon maturation tomonts excyst or hatch releasing daughter tomites into the water, at which point they become free-swimming theronts.

The time frame in which tomonts may hatch can vary greatly from 3 to 72 days (Noga, 2000). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependant so an extended period of 72 days is highly unusual and can only occur in cooler waters. At “reef-type” temperatures the tomonts take from 3 to 28 days to excyst (hatch) with the peak between 4 and 8 days (Colorni, 1985). This variance may be a strategy for survival. However, after two weeks in the tomont stage the number of theronts produced and their ability to infect are greatly reduced (Colorni, 1992).

The Theront Or Free-swimming Infective Stage
The free swimming, infective stage of the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is called a theront. Theronts have been reported to live in water in various studies from 12 to 48 hours after thatching from the tomont stage (Burgess & Matthews, 1994a.Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994. Colorni, 1985). They must find a suitable host within this period of time or they will die. Temperature, salinity, or differences in isolates may explain the discrepancy in time frame.

Theronts excyst or hatch from the tomont stage consistently between the hours of 2am and 9am (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). The circadian periodicity of theront emergence from the tomont stage does not appear to be related to light, but it is, as yet, unexplained. Theronts quickly begin to lose their ability to infect within hours of hatching from the tomont stage. Theronts have a low infectivity after just 6 – 8 hours (Burgess, 1992). At 7.5 hours after hatching 87% of theronts are still active. By 11.5 hours only 9% are still alive and active. At 15.5 hours from hatching only .34% are viable (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). Theront size varies with the isolate or variant of Cryptocaryon irritans, geographical location, host species and water temperature (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).

A proront is a theront that has contacted a host as attachment begins. Proronts invade the epithelium in as little as five minutes and the wounds can heal over them rapidly (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Proronts then quickly become trophonts and start to feed on the host fish.

Identification
Cryptocaryon irritans can only be definitively diagnosed by microscopic observation of continuously revolving, pear shaped ciliates (trophonts) in fresh gill or fin clippings, or skin scrapings (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). However there are a number of clinical signs of infection that can be easily observed by aquarists, especially if they have grown familiar with the normal appearance and behaviors of their stock:

List Of Possible Clinical Symptoms
White spots about the size of a printed period or pinhead. This parasite is usually noticed on the skin and fins first and later the eyes
Usually some, but not all, of the fish appear to be affected until the disease has progressed
Increased mucus production
Hyperactivity in early stages
Scratching (flashing) on objects within the aquarium
Shuddering or twitching
Seeking shelter or hiding
White spots that seem to disappear only to return several days later
Increased respiration rate, except in early stages
Cloudy eyes associated with secondary bacterial infection
Faded colors
Fin rot or other secondary bacterial infection in late stages
Multi-focal, de-pigmented skin erosions
Staying near the water surface or in areas of high water velocity
Lack of appetite in advanced stages
Dehydration and rapid weight loss in late stages
Adaptability Of The Parasite
Changes in some development features of tomonts were found after a few generations. These changes included differences from individual to aggregate- forming tomonts. Tomonts also changed from non-adherent or weakly adherent to adherent (Yambot, et al., 2003). The production of daughter tomonts by budding was reported in a cold-water variant of Cryptocaryon irritans (Jee, et al., 2000). Weekly adherent tomonts were found, in a seemingly distinct isolate, in extended tunnels within the epithelium (Diamant, et al., 1991).

Several new strains of Cryptocaryon irritans have been identified in Taiwan and other locations (Burgess & Mathews, 1995. Diggles and Adlard,1997). Highly aberrant and divergent isolates from Chiayi and Kaoshiung are of particular interest (Yambot, et al., 2003). The Chiayi isolate was discovered in a pond with a salinity of only 5ppt. This was the first recorded incidence of a Cryptocaryon irritans outbreak at such a low salinity. The Kaoshiung isolate was obtained from 12th-generation tomonts that originated from a cage at 10ppt salinity (Yambot, et al., 2003). Diggles and Lester, (1996a) suggested that the range of Cryptocaryon irritans has extended into estuaries.

New Challenge
The geographical, temperature and salinity ranges of Cryptocaryon irritans are becoming alarmingly broader and isolates from Taiwan have widened the diversity of the species (Diggles & Adlard, 1997. Yambot, et al., 2003). These reports bring to light the fact that Cryptocaryon irritans is capable of adapting to new environmental conditions. This makes the need for new strategies and treatments for its control crucial. All previously reported strains of Cryptocaryon irritans could be destroyed by hyposaline conditions (Colorni, 1987. Rigos et al., 2001).

Prevention
Prevention is always preferable to treating infected fish. Quarantining all new fish for a minimum of three weeks prior to placing them in their permanent home will prevent the vast majority of outbreaks in display aquariums. A longer quarantine period of six weeks adds an extra measure of safety. Strict prophylaxis and proper quarantine procedures are the best ways to maintain aquariums that are free of Cryptocaryon irritans (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).

If the fish that are being quarantined do exhibit disease, treatment will be simpler in a quarantine tank and the established stock has not been put at risk. Fish can routinely be treated with hyposalinity therapy during the initial quarantine period. This will greatly reduce the potential of importing parasites into the display system. If the fish are moved from a display aquarium for treatment elsewhere, the display tank should be left without fish (fallow with the exception of invertebrates) for a minimum of 30 days. This is generally a long enough time period for the parasite to die out for lack of a host (i.e. fish). Again, a longer fallow period adds an extra measure of safety.
 
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I agree with Minh. A balanced ecosystem will keep the parasites in check. Even though I have added fish in the past that developed parasites and required treatment, none of the established fish in the display tank developed any significant disease.
 
A balanced ecosystem will keep the parasites in check.

Your tank is only one prolonged power loss, equipment malfunction, big fish fight, etc. away from becoming "unbalanced". While none of the aforementioned is good for your fish, those not having to battle fish parasites while coping stand a better chance of survival.
 
Your tank is only one prolonged power loss, equipment malfunction, big fish fight, etc. away from becoming "unbalanced". While none of the aforementioned is good for your fish, those not having to battle fish parasites while coping stand a better chance of survival.
I actually had a tank crash way back when. Lots of the coral died. Clams got sick but the fish are all OK, no disease break out either. Even not QT and treat, I think that there is no Ich in my system after a few months.
Tank crash due to skimmer over flow, result in excessive Kalk water addtion then this trigger more skimmer overflow and more kalk.

Lesson learned, never use gravity feed with water level valve to add Kalk. There is way too manythings that will cause loss of water in a reef tank. Replace these water loss with saturated Kalk will crash the tank.
 
QT and prophylactic treatment of each & every fish is a relatively new concept for me. Back in the day, if I saw ich I just used copper in the tank as I didn't keep corals back then. Then I went thru my "ich management" phase with reefs - using UV, ozone, nutrition, etc. to keep the parasites at bay. It worked (with varying degrees of success), but it was a PITA at times and I noticed I would lose a fish under "mysterious circumstances" every so often.

Hurricane Katrina came and wiped out everything, so I was forced to completely start over. I went right back to the way I had been doing things, and fish were dropping like flies. I actually considered quitting the hobby for good (after almost 30 yrs by this point). But my corals were doing great, so after the last fish died I decided to just go fallow for 3-4 months. During that time, I read anything & everything I could about fish diseases. I was mad and determined this thing wasn't going to beat me.

So after that I started QT'ing, and got my fish in "breeding condition" via proper nutrition and by employing Paul B's methods. My fish are strong, look more vibrant than ones I've kept in the past, and I don't worry about finding a dead one anymore because that never happens. Zero casualties is now my ultimate (and now achievable) goal! My biggest problem these days is trying to re-home fish that outgrow my tank.

So I guess each to his own, and my little story is just one man's experience. But as long as I have a choice, I'll never go back to not QT'ing and hoping for the best. Now if ich somehow, someway reared it's ugly head in my tank tomorrow - then to be honest, I'd probably just put my faith in Paul B 3:16. ;) But until that day, I'm gonna stay the course which has led to my most successful run ever (with the fish) as a s/w hobbyist. :)
 
I do think that the behaviour of ich in a diverse, mature reef tank is not fully understood. While I fully endorse a comprehensive QT process, and have no reason to disagree with the published experts on the matter, my own observations after many years of keeping reef tanks suggests that ich CAN be managed. Doesn't mean it will always be manageable, but that it can be in certain circumstances. Trouble is, I cannot reliably state what those circumstances are, beyond anecdotal observation that my fish are clear. For example, I have been managing ich in my reef tank for close to 8 months now. I have a few fish that would be characterized as 'ich magnets' yet they are clear. I do occasionally see an ich spot, but only occasionally.

How does one explain this?

Although I think what I have is ich (95% certain), perhaps it is something else? Perhaps different strains of ich exhibit different levels of aggressiveness, and I have a mild one? Perhaps a divers, mature reef tank contains ich predators - after all, everything has a predator? Perhaps high flow, heavy skimming and UV reduces parasite pressures to the point that ich can be managed?

Clearly there are far worse things than ich, and as I noted, I do QT all fish and inverts. I also think there is value in experience - it may well be that a newcomer will fare far less well in attempting to manage ich.

Just my random thoughts on the subject!
 
Check this out!!! Crazy Reply to Thread

Check this out!!! Crazy Reply to Thread

I do think that the behaviour of ich in a diverse, mature reef tank is not fully understood. While I fully endorse a comprehensive QT process, and have no reason to disagree with the published experts on the matter, my own observations after many years of keeping reef tanks suggests that ich CAN be managed. Doesn't mean it will always be manageable, but that it can be in certain circumstances. Trouble is, I cannot reliably state what those circumstances are, beyond anecdotal observation that my fish are clear. For example, I have been managing ich in my reef tank for close to 8 months now. I have a few fish that would be characterized as 'ich magnets' yet they are clear. I do occasionally see an ich spot, but only occasionally.

How does one explain this?

Although I think what I have is ich (95% certain), perhaps it is something else? Perhaps different strains of ich exhibit different levels of aggressiveness, and I have a mild one? Perhaps a divers, mature reef tank contains ich predators - after all, everything has a predator? Perhaps high flow, heavy skimming and UV reduces parasite pressures to the point that ich can be managed?

Clearly there are far worse things than ich, and as I noted, I do QT all fish and inverts. I also think there is value in experience - it may well be that a newcomer will fare far less well in attempting to manage ich.

Just my random thoughts on the subject!

Bottom line is this:

If you want to rid your system of an existing parasite such as Ich or MV, (which is what killed most of my fish within 48 hours), you have to remove all fish from your system to a QT tank(s) for a min 72 days. The life cycle of these parasites is such that when a certain stage of their life cycle is reached they MUST have a host. They cannot put that part of their life cycle on hold. Either they find their fish host at that time or they die.
I placed my remaining 2 fish in QT for 93 days. During that time i treated the fish with Cupramine. When i returned the fish to the system the parasites never returned and i deemed my system free of these Parasites. Now, i have 2- 40 gal breeders that i will set up for QT of ANY fish i buy in the future. These new additions will remain in QT for a min 4-6 weeks before adding to my system. You simply MUST QT new additions even if you don't see any problems and even if the person at your local LFS tells you they are healthy.
 
Failed to Grasp Anything I Wrote?

Failed to Grasp Anything I Wrote?

:lmao:

Bottom line is this:

Sure, I can parrot the dogma too! Frankly, I find it kind of amusing how many QT converts, in the hobby for a few years, patting themselves on the back for their ingenuity, are completely incapable of considering that these things are never black and white.

Maybe you're not that experienced, so a QT is critical for you - heck, I'm pretty adamant about it myself - but there is enough evidence to me, based on my tanks over the years, to suggest that ich can be managed, and that a knee jerk reaction is not always the right approach.
 
:) :) :)
Bottom line is this:
I don't quarantine fish. I have a complete reef system I used as quarantine for my clams and anemones. It is a 30 gal tank, full sand bed with MH complete with skimmer, the whole works. It is a full reef system that I sometime put my new fish in , but it's function is to QT my anemones and clams. Those of you who know me, know that I am very strict in making sure my anemone and clams are healthy before they go into my DT. This is mainly due to bacterial infection anemones can carry and past on to other anemones, and PMD in clams. As far as I can determine, these diseases are fatal and require intervention from me to keep them alive.

Fish not so much. Fish have a much more advance immune system. They need to be healthy and they will be able to control infections themselves. I have always try my best to have a diverse sand bed and rock. IME and IMO result from that experiences, a diverse ecosystem is the best way to control disease. I even have red flat worms started then died out in my tank. MV and Ich don't have a chance in my tank. I never have a fish died in my care from MV or Ich forever. I don't buy fish with gross Ich, but I am not afraid of adding otherwise healthy fish with Ich in my DT. They, the Ich not the fish, just frizzle out and gone in a few weeks.
 
:) :) :)
Bottom line is this:
I don't quarantine fish. I have a complete reef system I used as quarantine for my clams and anemones. It is a 30 gal tank, full sand bed with MH complete with skimmer, the whole works. It is a full reef system that I sometime put my new fish in , but it's function is to QT my anemones and clams. Those of you who know me, know that I am very strict in making sure my anemone and clams are healthy before they go into my DT. This is mainly due to bacterial infection anemones can carry and past on to other anemones, and PMD in clams. As far as I can determine, these diseases are fatal and require intervention from me to keep them alive.

Fish not so much. Fish have a much more advance immune system. They need to be healthy and they will be able to control infections themselves. I have always try my best to have a diverse sand bed and rock. IME and IMO result from that experiences, a diverse ecosystem is the best way to control disease. I even have red flat worms started then died out in my tank. MV and Ich don't have a chance in my tank. I never have a fish died in my care from MV or Ich forever. I don't buy fish with gross Ich, but I am not afraid of adding otherwise healthy fish with Ich in my DT. They, the Ich not the fish, just frizzle out and gone in a few weeks.

Large tank volume definitely helps. i noticed even if clean, in QT everything takes holds far faster. I want a 300g tank also. :) Yes, in ideal cases the ecosystem itself takes care of some problems. But the parasite can be completely removed from the picture with some effort. Minh, looking at your tank, it is exceptional as far as how it's cared for, top 1% of the hobby. Most people will never reach that level, so Ich is a much larger concern.
 
I can see where Minh is coming from - to be honest, there are many things in nature that keeps it at a state of 'balance', and that involves countless numbers of organisms interacing with each other. Predation, mutualism, commensalism, parasitism, competition and more allows for a complex ecosystem to sustain itself. This will include many of the things we zealously try to kill off.

And so our system can be missing key links in keeping it well, well.

A simple example is that scientists previously tried to create a ecosystem sort of thing in an enclosed system and failed. They then found that they need rhizobia, which tbh looks like tumors on plants. XD

And that's just one part of it. :) It could be very well that by leaving things alone, Minh's system does indeed have what it takes to sort itself out.
 
I actually got sand from the Corpus Christi Bay, the beach sand and added them into my system. I put the rock (dead) that I have into the bay for 3 months then added it diretly into my tank. First water was water pumped from the bay directly into my tank. I got sand from various systems and from LFSs and added those into my tank. Of course I don't just added any sand to my system. I have to see and feel that the tank is well run and disease free.
I have always done this to diversify the organisms in the sand bed and in the rock for my system.
 
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