"Chinese LEDs"

[NaasReefer]

So I went for it and got the "Chinese" LEDs. I got them from eBay and they go by SunSpect but they come in loads of different brand names. Anyway here's an unboxing video, I'll be doing updates showing how the tank is doing with them. I know a lot of people ask how good they are so I'll be giving my opinion over the next while so sub to the thread if you want to keep updated.


I used to run 4x 54w T5s but I got tired of changing bulbs and I had to change two ballasts also so they were working out quite expensive to run. I wanted to go to LEDs but the price tag was the only thing holding me back. I did a good bit of research and found some good reviews about these LEDs that cost way less than the high end brand names. I'm sure the high end ones are much better but simply can't afford to spend 1000 dollars or more on lights. So far the new LEDs have been on for 4 days and the corals are responding well.

A word of warning when buying from eBay however. I did get caught by a scammer the first time I tried to buy these lights. The seller had tons of good feedback for the last year so I went and got the lights. After 3 weeks there was no sign of them so I tried to contact the seller and there was loads of negative feedback from the past 3 weeks of large items such as the lights not being delivered. Turns out he sold loads of small cheap stuff to get positive feedback then when he had some large orders he did a runner. So just be careful and check that the seller has good feedback over a long period of time. This guy looked good but obviously wasn't.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/45R5QsWzyA4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[wake2life]

We had the same led lights on our 100 gallon and all our corals started to wither so we bought radions....i believe the color spectrum is a little off on the cheap leds but they worked for a while

 

[kdirk]

That's a pretty bold statement, do you have any proof to back that up. I've read a lot of posts saying they have good growth.

 

[jbvdhp]

We had the same led lights on our 100 gallon and all our corals started to wither so we bought radions....i believe the color spectrum is a little off on the cheap leds but they worked for a while

I suspect it may be something OTHER than your lights (parameters?). I ran the cheap CBB and they grew corals perfectly fine, sps. I just UG to some better Chinese made ones, and they definitely grow acros and SPS, albeit maybe not super fast, but they grow and I see the changes.

I wouldn't take your experience or statement as the norm

 

[mjstech]

I have been looking at getting a single 165w for a glass 29g. I just setup two weeks ago. Do they run hot/warm. How high off the water surface are you. Do you think it would support 30" long tank? Are the fans loud? What corals do you have? Do you think you would have rather gone with programmable/wifi one?

 

[Ron Reefman]

We had the same led lights on our 100 gallon and all our corals started to wither so we bought radions....i believe the color spectrum is a little off on the cheap leds but they worked for a while

Your corals may have started to 'wither' and the 'light' may have been at fault, but not the fixture. It was more likely the person operating the fixture that was the problem or something else entirely. Even cheap fixtures with just white and blue 3 watt leds from Bridgelux or Epistar will grow coral.

BTW, what do corals look like when they 'wither'?

 

[homer1475]

My 2 300W units from fleabay are great! My corals all are growing very well and some of my acans that were losing their bright colors under a RapidLED aurora puck are back to coloring up nicely.

 

[slief]

That's a pretty bold statement, do you have any proof to back that up. I've read a lot of posts saying they have good growth.

The reality is that most of the black box fixture do not have a good mix of led's in terms spectrum. The ideal ratio for corals is 3:1 blue to white but 2:1 is OK. Most black boxes are full spectrum. They have a 3:1 if not 2:1 white to blue ratio which isn't ideal for coral growth. The issue is that corals get most of their photosynthetic radiation from the 420-460nm spectrum range which is the bluer spectrum. While you can certainly dim the white channels down, you loose a lot of wattage and efficiency in doing so. If you don't understand the spectrums and go into LED's half hazardly, especially with the black boxes you will find yourself burning corals due to having the too much of the wrong spectrum and or too much intensity. That's not to say they won't grow corals. They will but you need to be much more cognizant about the channel mixing & intensity. There are some black box fixtures like those from SB that have a better mix of LED's but the eBay ones don't have an ideal mix nor do most other black box fixtures.

 

[NaasReefer]

Ok so we got some great replies and a good debate going here. I'm not going to claim to be an expert but I'll try to reply to each comment so far.

We had the same led lights on our 100 gallon and all our corals started to wither so we bought radions....i believe the color spectrum is a little off on the cheap leds but they worked for a while

What do mean by "the color spectrum is a little off"? Here are the specs of the light units I have:
Channel 1: 27LEDS Blue (460~470nm), Royal Blue 450nm, UV (400~420nm)
Channel 2: 28LEDs Cool White (9000~14000K), Neutral White (5500~8000K), Warm White (3000~4500K), Red 660nm, Green 520nm

That's a pretty bold statement, do you have any proof to back that up. I've read a lot of posts saying they have good growth.

The research I did said the same, lots of good reviews with good growth etc...

I suspect it may be something OTHER than your lights (parameters?). I ran the cheap CBB and they grew corals perfectly fine, sps. I just UG to some better Chinese made ones, and they definitely grow acros and SPS, albeit maybe not super fast, but they grow and I see the changes.

I wouldn't take your experience or statement as the norm

Good to hear you got good growth, what size tank do you have and what CBBs were you using?

I have been looking at getting a single 165w for a glass 29g. I just setup two weeks ago. Do they run hot/warm. How high off the water surface are you. Do you think it would support 30" long tank? Are the fans loud? What corals do you have? Do you think you would have rather gone with programmable/wifi one?

They are quite cool so far but I have them on 40% and increasing slightly every few days so I don't know how hot they will run when up full. On a 30'' you'll probably have dark ends, I have 2 165w on a 48'' and it seems about right. The 300w is an option for a longer tank maybe... At the moment the fans aren't loud, but my pumps are pretty loud so could be getting drowned out by them! I have a mix of mushrooms, palythoas, gsp, hammer, torch, montipora and an anemone, all are doing fine and color is looking good. I didn't go for the programable ones due to the cost and not being 100% sure how good the lights are in the first place. If I get two good years out of these lights then I will upgrade to the programmable ones most likely.

Your corals may have started to 'wither' and the 'light' may have been at fault, but not the fixture. It was more likely the person operating the fixture that was the problem or something else entirely. Even cheap fixtures with just white and blue 3 watt leds from Bridgelux or Epistar will grow coral.

BTW, what do corals look like when they 'wither'?

I have read so many posts about these being decent lights and growing coral just fine. I'll keep you updated with how mine get on....

My 2 300W units from fleabay are great! My corals all are growing very well and some of my acans that were losing their bright colors under a RapidLED aurora puck are back to coloring up nicely.

GREAT to hear that!! My torch has sprung back into full life in the 5 days since the new lights went on! The colors on all my corals are way brighter now too.

The reality is that most of the black box fixture do not have a good mix of led's in terms spectrum. The ideal ratio for corals is 3:1 blue to white but 2:1 is OK. Most black boxes are full spectrum. They have a 3:1 if not 2:1 white to blue ratio which isn't ideal for coral growth. The issue is that corals get most of their photosynthetic radiation from the 420-460nm spectrum range which is the bluer spectrum. While you can certainly dim the white channels down, you loose a lot of wattage and efficiency in doing so. If you don't understand the spectrums and go into LED's half hazardly, especially with the black boxes you will find yourself burning corals due to having the too much of the wrong spectrum and or too much intensity. That's not to say they won't grow corals. They will but you need to be much more cognizant about the channel mixing & intensity. There are some black box fixtures like those from SB that have a better mix of LED's but the eBay ones don't have an ideal mix nor do most other black box fixtures.

Not sure where you got that the black boxes have a 3:1 or 2:1 white to blue ratio. Mine have a 27:24 blue to white ratio so close to 1:1. The channels can then be tuned to get a 3:1 blue to white ratio by having the blues at 90% and the whites at 30% (for example). I would say (and just speculating here) that people who burned their corals with these may have put the intensity up too high to begin with and didn't start low and build it up over a few weeks.

 

[Cthehentz]

I run this exact setup on my 90g and have seen nothing but growth, it will take several weeks for your tank to adjust going from T5's to the LEDS.

 

[slief]

Not sure where you got that the black boxes have a 3:1 or 2:1 white to blue ratio. Mine have a 27:24 blue to white ratio so close to 1:1. The channels can then be tuned to get a 3:1 blue to white ratio by having the blues at 90% and the whites at 30% (for example). I would say (and just speculating here) that people who burned their corals with these may have put the intensity up too high to begin with and didn't start low and build it up over a few weeks.

I did say most (not all). I probably should have said many and not most though. My comment was in response to the other persons post regarding spectrums. Some do have a much lower blue count than your fixture. Still, 1:1 isn't ideal for corals and if I had to guess, you probably have the white channel dialed way back. If you don't, you will likely see a lot more algae growth.. That said, on a 165 watt fixture, if you have to dim down the 2nd channel that much to get the spectrum where it needs to be, then your fixture isn't as efficient for corals as one that has a better ratio. Reality is that most will never need to run a fixture at 100% anyway and if you get the color mix right and acclimate corals to the LED's, growth shouldn't be an issue assuming the rest of the tanks parameters are in order. I do agree though as noted above, the reason people burn their corals is because they have the intensity up too far. LED's are far more powerful than people realize. Wrong spectrum can cause color issues with corals as well.

 

[NaasReefer]

I did say most (not all). I probably should have said many and not most though. My comment was in response to the other persons post regarding spectrums. Some do have a much lower blue count than your fixture. Still, 1:1 isn't ideal for corals and if I had to guess, you probably have the white channel dialed way back. If you don't, you will likely see a lot more algae growth.. That said, on a 165 watt fixture, if you have to dim down the 2nd channel that much to get the spectrum where it needs to be, then your fixture isn't as efficient for corals as one that has a better ratio. Reality is that most will never need to run a fixture at 100% anyway and if you get the color mix right and acclimate corals to the LED's, growth shouldn't be an issue assuming the rest of the tanks parameters are in order. I do agree though as noted above, the reason people burn their corals is because they have the intensity up too far. LED's are far more powerful than people realize. Wrong spectrum can cause color issues with corals as well.

At the moment I have both channels running at 30%, just turned them up from 25% today. I will be increasing the blues by 5% every two or three days over the next while until I reach the desired look, also keeping a close eye on the corals to see how they respond. I will do more research into the best mix using these fixtures and try to figure out what has worked best for others. If it turns out in a few months that I still need more light I can always add a third fixture and it would still work out way cheaper than the brand name LED fixtures. Keep in mind that the main reason for me choosing these LEDs is due to my budget, if I could afford top of the range I would for sure get them!:beer:

 

[slief]

At the moment I have both channels running at 30%, just turned them up from 25% today. I will be increasing the blues by 5% every two or three days over the next while until I reach the desired look, also keeping a close eye on the corals to see how they respond. I will do more research into the best mix using these fixtures and try to figure out what has worked best for others. If it turns out in a few months that I still need more light I can always add a third fixture and it would still work out way cheaper than the brand name LED fixtures. Keep in mind that the main reason for me choosing these LEDs is due to my budget, if I could afford top of the range I would for sure get them!:beer:

I would slow the increase WAY down. 5% every few days or even once a week is WAY too much if you. I wouldn't suggest increasing more than 5-10% per month. At 5% every few days, you won't be giving your corals time to acclimate to the increased intensity. As a result, you will likely do damage to the corals and will have to step back too far. At 5-10% a month, it will be easier to reverse course before doing too much damage.

My advice (and this comes from 6 years experience running LED's) would be to increase 2% each week for a total of 8% a month. I would suggest aiming for the 3:1 (Blue:white) color spectrum. As such, increase only the blue channel for a while. I suspect the 30% whites should be sufficient but I wouldn't exceed 50% on whites even if you make it to 100% blue which I doubt you wil. Increase 2% once a week until you see an adverse reaction from the corals. Then back off 5-6% and see if they respond positively again. If they do, hold it there for 30 days, then try to increase 2% a week again if you desire.

The key is taking it slow if you want to avoid doing damage. The other key is watching your corals very closely for adverse reactions such as polyp recession and or bleaching. By taking it really slow, your risks of damaging your corals is virtually eliminated and you are acclimating them properly to the increasing intensity.

 

[blasterman789]

The reality is that most of the black box fixture do not have a good mix of led's in terms spectrum.

Quantify 'mix' for me please.

All of these fixtures have more colors and channels than a disco floor, so I'm curious how can you make a claim that a fixture puts out 'X' spectrum when there's more colors being delivered in these units than a box fruity pebbles.

For the most part Royal LEDs comprise 60-70% of the light out-put on any reef LED fixture dialed to a color cooler than 6000k. Lets get that out of they way. Royal LEDs are pretty much standardized at around 450nm with a few nm deviance either way, which doesn't matter to corals.

The rest of the colors used in LED units are pretty much anecdotal, but even if they do affect coral growth at full spectrum, daylight CCTs they are such a small component of the over-all blue slanted spectrum we dial in they don't matter much. For that matter a green LED matches the spectrum of the green in a white LED because the component used to produce the color is the same. A Philips 5000k white LED with a CRI of 80 will be visibly superior over a rack of clothing than a Chinese knockoff LED at the same color temp. Over a reef tank though you won't see a difference other than the American LED being brighter. Only thing the coral sees is blue.

The only LEDs lights I'm aware of that *were* prone to bleaching are the older AI Sol's with the 470nm cool-blue option. When you combined the 470nm with the 450nm royals you got a massive dose of PAR that other artificial light sources couldn't replicate. That's why initial AI LED adopters were nuking their SPS so easily. However, I've not seen any Chinese fixtures use multi channel blue, and 465-470nm blues are increasingly rare as the industry moves more towards 'disco colors'.

I've used several of the various Chinese units, seen them on friend's tanks, and taken note of the LED's they are using. Mostly Bridgelux / Epistar / Etc. and the usual Asian players. You probably take a 30-35% hit efficiency -vs- name brands U.S. unit running Cree. Color though is pretty much how you prefer to dial in all those funky colors. They all grow corals the same if adjusted to match blue intensity.

 

[slief]

Quantify 'mix' for me please.

All of these fixtures have more colors and channels than a disco floor, so I'm curious how can you make a claim that a fixture puts out 'X' spectrum when there's more colors being delivered in these units than a box fruity pebbles.

For the most part Royal LEDs comprise 60-70% of the light out-put on any reef LED fixture dialed to a color cooler than 6000k. Lets get that out of they way. Royal LEDs are pretty much standardized at around 450nm with a few nm deviance either way, which doesn't matter to corals.

The rest of the colors used in LED units are pretty much anecdotal, but even if they do affect coral growth at full spectrum, daylight CCTs they are such a small component of the over-all blue slanted spectrum we dial in they don't matter much. For that matter a green LED matches the spectrum of the green in a white LED because the component used to produce the color is the same. A Philips 5000k white LED with a CRI of 80 will be visibly superior over a rack of clothing than a Chinese knockoff LED at the same color temp. Over a reef tank though you won't see a difference other than the American LED being brighter. Only thing the coral sees is blue.

The only LEDs lights I'm aware of that *were* prone to bleaching are the older AI Sol's with the 470nm cool-blue option. When you combined the 470nm with the 450nm royals you got a massive dose of PAR that other artificial light sources couldn't replicate. That's why initial AI LED adopters were nuking their SPS so easily. However, I've not seen any Chinese fixtures use multi channel blue, and 465-470nm blues are increasingly rare as the industry moves more towards 'disco colors'.

I've used several of the various Chinese units, seen them on friend's tanks, and taken note of the LED's they are using. Mostly Bridgelux / Epistar / Etc. and the usual Asian players. You probably take a 30-35% hit efficiency -vs- name brands U.S. unit running Cree. Color though is pretty much how you prefer to dial in all those funky colors. They all grow corals the same if adjusted to match blue intensity.

You obviously know your LED's so I will just clarify my contentions as I think you and I are more or less on the same page. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with where I was going or coming from unless I misinterpreted your response. The Blue spectrum and in particular, 420nm to 460nm is where corals get most of their needed photosynthetic radiation (PR) from. The white spectrum is more for visual preference and the appearance of brightness but has much less impact and relevance for coral growth. Blue lighting doesn't appear visually bright to the human eye let alone most par meters which is a big reason why people nuke their corals. It's next to impossible to quantify visually how bright or intense that spectrum is without having a specialized par meter capable of reading that spectrum properly. Only recently did Agogee address that with their latest meter. If you can't tell how intense the light actually is, it's easy to go too far. Sadly, many people new to LED's including those early adopters of the AI lights found out the hard way by starting off with too much intensity or increasing their intensity too fast.

Dedicated LED colors like red and green aren't really needed for PR in corals. They are more for making certain colors in corals pop. Thus my contention that 3:1 or 2:1 mix of blues to whites is making much better use of the the diodes in a fixture and why most reef centric fixtures have a very high number of blue/royal blue diodes compared to white/6000k etc.. As for bleaching, that doesn't have as much to do with spectrum as it does with intesinity which you obviously know.

Regarding the "disco" effect.. LMAO at the fruity pebble analogy!! That was funny! Yea, most lights these days have gone down that path and sadly. I think there is some merit to having the red and green diodes but only if you have direct control over those channels and not have those colors mixed in with the white or blue. As I said above, those colors while not important to PR for corals, can help bring out colors that would otherwise not be seen or at least not pop under the blue light.

I've always been amazed at what a mix of LED's could do for coral appearance on corals that would look pretty boring under natural conditions in the ocean where many of these spectrums are filtered out by the depths. Hell, even at the surface of the ocean, much of the colors we see in corals in a reef tank would look completely different which is attributable in large part to the synthetic lighting. The key however is having individual control over dedicated color channels which is in my opinion one of the benefits that more expensive fixtures bring. Not only do they have a better balanced mix of colored diodes (for coral growth) but you have infinitely more control over each color/channel as opposed to having blues, RB's and UV's mixed on one channel and whites, red's and greens on another. While that makes things more complex and perhaps dangerous for the user to set the light up, it lends itself well for maximizing different spectrums and not wasting available wattage on too many whites or unneeded colors.

Anyhow, I hope I shed some "light" on where I was coming from in my post.

 

[kdirk]

So I still don't see any proof that the spectrum is off. I fully understand that the Chinese black box is not the same quality as the radions, but that doesn't mean their not a good light for the price. I also understand that you like your expensive lights and that's why your hear defending them. Can we just consider maybe we over pay for led lights and buy way into this is the best.

 

[slief]

So I still don't see any proof that the spectrum is off. I fully understand that the Chinese black box is not the same quality as the radions, but that doesn't mean their not a good light for the price. I also understand that you like your expensive lights and that's why your hear defending them. Can we just consider maybe we over pay for led lights and buy way into this is the best.

Why do I always end up in these debates. Maybe I just need to stop responding to these threads. :hammer:

Clearly you are a black box fan which per great! I'm just pointing out some basics about LED's and mixes so that others can be more informed when the they look at light options. I am not disparaging Black Boxes. I never said not to buy black boxes nor did I say people should go buy a Radion let alone a Kessil in this thread. Did I ever say the BB's aren't a good light for the price?? I don't think so. I also never said they were a waste of money. SB Reef Lights and Reef Breeders aren't expensive lights and both are Chinese Black Box fixtures. Seems I defend both of them plenty. In fact, I know I mentioned SB in this very thread and I mentioned them because their mix of diode colors is different than your typical full spectrum fixture that wasn't developed with reef tanks in mind. Anyhow, you can take my comments however you want. I think have have made my position plenty clear and never once did I say Chinese Black Boxes wouldn't grow corals nor did I ever say they weren't good for their price.

If you think my comments about the ratio of blues to whites is off base, I'm sorry. There are plenty of threads here on this forum and elsewhere that discuss that in depth You can certainly get the right spectrum from these lights. I NEVER said you couldn't. You just end up with one channel dimmed down as much as 75% otherwise you are likely to deal with excess algae growth and or nuisance algae as well as washed out looking corals.

 

[LED Jack]

I am an LED manufacturer so let me try to share some of my knowledge.

But first off I do not mess with aquarium fixtures or lighting in anyway so I am not selling or promoting anything.

Now when I say I am a LED manufacturer let me be clear what that means, I work with and have agreements with factories in China that makes commercial LED lights and light fixtures for me. These lights are sold by me and have my name on them but are still manufactured in China.

The reason I am saying this is because even if you buy an LED fixture from an American company that does not mean the fixture is American made. And I am willing to bet that most of the American companies selling LED fixtures have them produced in China as I do.

The stigmata that surrounds Chinese LEDs is really unwarranted. The Chinese have been making LED products far better and far longer than us Americans. Now with that being said there is cheap LEDs and there are high quality LEDs no matter what country they were produced in.

I am trying to keep this short and simple but still be thorough.

Okay so you have a Aquarium light manufacturer selling lights so what does that mean exactly?

Well that can mean any number of things, it could mean that this manufacturer sources every bit of the light and assembles it. Or it can mean that the manufacturer makes 1 or more components of the fixture like the case, heatsink, PCB, lens, or driver. For example the high wattage lights I manufacture use several different LED chip types. Those chip types are Cree, Philips, Samsung, and Nichia. There are hundreds of companies making LED lights with these chips so what makes one better than the other? Well that is where you need to look at the components that I have mentioned. And then you have the assembly of the fixture was it done with shrink tubing or cheap wire nuts? What is that fixtures waterproof rating?

So what I am trying to get at is 2 lights can look exactly the same but have totally different components and just because it has an American name on the box does not mean the light was made in America.

I just went on Champion Lighting and looked at a few of their LED manufacturers ( I will not mention names) and of course the lights are made in China. The best a layman can do when making a decision on LED equipment is look at the specifications and the components. But a word of advice, companies like Cree have more chip models than you can count on your hands so just because 2 lights say Cree does not make them equal. I have been seeing lights advertise Cree XPG chips and for my industry those are the cheapest and least lumens producing chips Cree has. I use these chips on a low wattage wallpack (40w and less) line that I produce so it works well for them and maybe that is why these work well in aquarium lights.

 

[Fredfish]

So what I am trying to get at is 2 lights can look exactly the same but have totally different components and just because it has an American name on the box does not mean the light was made in America.

Some people struggle with the concept of different component levels. One of the most obvious I've seen is heatsinks. There have been a number of black box tear-downs posted here on RC. Some lights use a simple aluminum plate for a heat-sink, something that is not particularly efficient at dissipating heat and probably leads to premature failure of LEDs if you run them anything close to their rated max.

If a manufacturer is willing to cheap out on such an obvious component, it is reasonable to assume they've cut corners elsewhere.

The problem, as I see it and as you pointed out, is the variability of quality from one manufacturer to the next. There are a few suppliers like ReefBreeders that have been around long enough to establish a reputation for a reasonable level of quality.

Buying from Ebay/Amazon introduces an element of risk on quality. People should be aware of that before they buy.

 

[moatdaddy]

reefbreeders offers a great warranty and customer service. when black box leds came out they didnt exist, people were skeptical of buying direct from china. They sold them with a warranty then modified the design. Make zero mistake, they are made in china, just sold by a us company. I do love how they have made improvements on the model. In the end i still buy off ebay to save and thats my choice.