Chloramine Filtration Question!

Dustin1300

Reefaholic
I've just recently moved and am getting another system back up and running and live in a new area. This being said, I'm worried that I need to now treat for Chlorine treatment before entering my RO/DI unit. Below is some of my information for the more qualified water specialists:)

Local Water Center's Treatment PDF:

http://www.carmelutilities.com/0e04...ies.com/files/CARMEL_WATER_QUALITY_REPORT.pdf

What are your recommendations on filtration before the RO/DI unit? I have a Vertex Puratec RO/DI and am looking for recommendations on a good pre-filter that takes out the chloramine before the filters!

Options?

- Dual Chloramine Unit from Filter Guys

- Dual BRS Unit and some Catalytic Activated Carbon.

- Chloramine Monster from BRS
 
I didn't see anything in the report about chloramine. You probably can just have a single carbon filter in the unit. A second carbon block would be a nice addition, but not a must.
 
disc1, sorry but I took screen shots so you could see what I was referencing in case the PDF fails to display again. I'm thinking they blocked the url I was referecing from an external site redirecting:(

Water Quality Report:
Water1.png


Water Treatment Process:
Water2.png
 
bertoni,

I appreciate the link and was a great article on the topic! I believe I was just mistaken about the difference between Chlorine and Chloramine. I should have done a bit more research before bothering RCers but appreciate the knowledge share:)

Based on the article referenced I have a much better understanding and will follow up with my local utilities to ensure that it is still accurate since that was published in 2009 and they could have added chloramine to the mix. Because of the uncertainties of chloramine if I find that they are now using then I believe I'll be using the carbon pre-filter before hitting my RO/DI unit. While this might be overkill I'd rather take that course of action and feel safer than sorry since I've got a big system build underway!
 
Keep in mind that most utilities will flush the system with chlorine/chloramine in a high concentration once or twice a year. Often, if they use chlorine normally they flush with chloramine combinations and vice versa.

Jeff
 
City came back with good news:) They use just chlorine in my area as it's a newer development. I guess anyone serviced by Indianapolis Utilities does have chloramine in the water...Guess I was just stressing about nothing! Thanks all to the responses and education article.
 
Keep in mind that most utilities will flush the system with chlorine/chloramine in a high concentration once or twice a year. Often, if they use chlorine normally they flush with chloramine combinations and vice versa.

Jeff

That being said, I'm fairly confident that my normal Carbon stage will resolve any residual Chloramine in the water supply. Any recommendation on the best Carbon Filter to use to ensure I'm protected in these times of the year? I typically use BRS for all my filters/two part/carbon/gfo needs!
 
The biggest concern with Chloramine is that when the GAC breaks it down, it produces ammonia which is not removed by the GAC and passes right through RO membranes. The ammonia is removed by the DI resins, so when you have chloramine in your water you want to pay close attention to your TDS. Once the TDS starts to rise, you want to change it quickly otherwise you can end up with very large amounts of ammonia dumped into your rodi reservoir. In some cases you can smell it. ;)
 
When chlorine or chloramine are in water supplies, using two carbon filters in a row, will serve as back-up, should you wait too long to change out these filters.
 
That's a nice system, you have back-up at the carbon end for chlorine and chloramine, and also at the DI end to prevent ammonia and silicates from escaping when changes are needed. ;)
 
I see the links are working or at least some of them. I re-read Randy's article noted above and see that I was not 100% correct in my statement. Personally I have very high pH water say above 9, which IIRC Randy has stated at high pH the ro membrane does not remove ammonia well. But for lower pH level water (below 7.5), the ro membrane will remove a lot of ammonia. For clarification:


"Removing Chloramine From Water: Activated Carbon

Another method for removing chloramine from water is with activated carbon (as is contained in most RO/DI systems). In a two step process, the carbon catalytically breaks the chloramine down into ammonia, chloride, and nitrogen gas

C + NH2Cl + H2O � C-O + NH3 + Cl- + H+

C-O + 2NH2Cl � C + N2 + 2Cl- + 2H+ + H2O

where C stands for the activated carbon, and C-O stands for oxidized activated carbon. In this case, as was found for thiosulfate, the product includes ammonia, which is not bound significantly by activated carbon. Consequently, treatment of water with activated carbon will need to be followed up by some method of eliminating the ammonia.

In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to an aquarist.

Removing Chloramine With Activated Carbon: Does it Really Work?

There has been much debate over whether commercial RO/DI systems used by aquarists are actually removing chloramine in adequate quantity. The concern is not whether they can theoretically do so, but whether the actual units allow sufficient contact time between the water and the activated carbon for the units to do an adequate job.

I have been using a Spectrapure RO/DI system (CSP25DI) for years, and my water does contain chloramine, so naturally I was interested to know if it was up to the task. In discussing the issue with Charles Mitsis, President of Spectrapure, he said that my water was among the most difficult to successfully remove chloramine from because the pH was high, and he was not sure that the unit was adequate. The reasons for being concerned were that:

1. Monochloramine is the most difficult of the three chloramine species to remove because it is small (allowing it to pass through a reverse osmosis membrane).
2. Monochloramine is the most chemically stable of the chloramine species, so is the hardest to break down (as on activated carbon).
3. Monochloramine predominates over the other forms in tap water at pH above 7 (dichloramine predominates at pH 4-7).
4. The pores of the activated carbon may become plugged with sediment over time, reducing the effectiveness of the carbon at breaking apart chloramine.
5. At high pH, the pores of the RO membrane can swell, resulting in poorer rejection of impurities.

With this as the backdrop, I set about organizing a round of testing by aquarists to see if their commercially-available systems were adequately removing chloramine.

First, I selected a single, high quality test method for participants to use: the Hach CN-70 kit described above. I then asked aquarists to test several things:

1. The free and total chlorine in their tap water after letting it run for a while.
2. The free and total chlorine in their RO reject water.
3. The free and total chlorine in their finished RO/DI water.
4. The pH of the tap water.

In my case, for example, I had the following results:

Tap water:
pH ~9
Total Chlorine: 0.4-0.5 ppm one day, 0.08 ppm on a second day.
Free chlorine: <0.01 ppm (effectively all of the total chlorine was chloramine)

RO Reject water:
Total Chlorine: 0.02 ppm
Free chlorine: <0.01 ppm

Final RO/DI water:
Total Chlorine: <0.01 ppm

Consequently, within the capabilities of the Hach test kit (0.01 ppm), there is no chloramine getting through the system. A small amount does appear to get past the carbon to the RO waste water, but it does not get through the RO membrane and DI resin.

A similar set of data (more or less complete) was collected from about 20 aquarists in different parts of the country. These included systems that were stated to have a capacity of 25-100 gallons per day, the higher volume systems being especially interesting because the contact time with the carbon might be shorter. All but one had similar results to those reported here. The anomalous report produced the following results:"
 
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This is a statement taken from this link:

http://www.aquatechnology.net/reverse_osmosis.html

From it:

"It is thought that the high pH causes chloramines to dissociate into ammonium and hypo chlorite ions. The ammonium ions, which are poorly removed by activated carbon, interact with the polyamide membranes, causing their rejection characteristics to deteriorate. The decrease in rejection can generally be reversed by lowering the pH of the water supply."
 
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