Clown genetics 101- misbars make misbars?

David M

David M

New member
I am looking at a breeding pair of clowns in a lfs display tank, I will have to pay a fortune to persuade the owner to catch them out. The female is a normally colored ocellaris except it is misbarred. The male appears to be ocellaris but is very dark, almost like a B&W. It is also misbarred. Actually it could be a perc for all I know, I'm not very good at the distinction. So my question is- is misbarring a random occurance or is it an inherited trait? Would the offspring of two misbarred clowns be any more likely to show the "defect" than any other brood?
 
If that were so, then they all would be misbarred. I think it is just a fact of nature. It makes more sense that the siblings should all be different than that they should all look the same. Bars have no physiological function that we know of.

In any given nest there are usually some that are misbarred. In nature so few survive compared to captive bred, that the odds are in favor of non-misbarred ones since there are so many more of them than the misbarred ones.

My point is I do not think that captive breeding brings about misbars. Captive breeding just gets a larger population to survive, misbarred or not.
 
Personally not having seen or read concrete research regarding the validity of environmental parameters or genetics causing or not causing mis-barrs, I'm up in the air (or on the fence) regarding this.
Also having not been able to reproduce conditions consistently enough to document and reach my own conclusions hasn't helped. (Mostly ââ"šÂ¬Ã‹Å“cause Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m a lazy SOB with precious little time as it is)
However, a personal conversation with a fellow breeder in Brazil whom has several B&W ocellaris pairs breeding claims to not have had a single mis-barr or gill plate deformity in over a year as a direct result of doing 95-99% water changes during the first 10 days.
Unfortunately I've been unable to grill him more thoroughly on this subject as I have several of the same spawning and would give my left something or other to recreate his results.

So, I don't THINK that mating mis-barrs would result in an elevated number of mis-barrs
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6752352#post6752352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
Oh,not again!:thumbdown
We have discussed this thing "ad nauseam"
Groundhog day,huh!:p
Click to expand...
Yup
 
We have discussed this thing "ad nauseam"
Click to expand...

My apologies. Too bad we don't have a funtional search function, I could have saved you the aggrivation. :D

Care to offer up a link or two? :lol:
 
 
along these lines.... (not a pun i swear) how long does it usually take for the 3rd bar to grow in? i got one of Rod's Onyx yesterday and it quickly made friends with my ocellaris almost 2.5x his size (the O. actually did the submissive move to the MUCH smaller onyx)... but he doesnt have his third stripe yet... just wondering when i should expect it... hes about 5 months old according to Rod.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6752451#post6752451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David M
My apologies. Too bad we don't have a funtional search function, I could have saved you the aggrivation. :D

Care to offer up a link or two? :lol:
Click to expand...

Just hang in there. I have done some initial peer review of some research. It is coming, just give them time to get all their fish in a row before going public.

Without breaking my confidenciality agreements (my word), here is what I can tell you.

1) Genetics absolutly, 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt plays a roll.

2) Clownfish do not know about conventional "laws" of genetics and break the laws all the time.

3) David, if you buy two misbarred fish and breed them, the offspring will have a higher percentage of misbarred offspring than a typical normally barred pair. Also see #2.

IMO I now feel that genetics play a bigger roll than anything else. The tricky part is that the environmental aspects also effect bar development. So if you have two fish that would have been normally barred, but something happened to prevent the normal development, then they are from a genetic standpoint still normally barred fish, even though they are misbarred.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6752451#post6752451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David M
My apologies. Too bad we don't have a funtional search function, I could have saved you the aggrivation. :D

Care to offer up a link or two? :lol:
Click to expand...

Hey David,didnÃ"šÃ‚´t mean to sound "aggravated".:D
But this is a very controversial subject and I donÃ"šÃ‚´t want to fuel a bitter debate;)
Will just paste from one of those old threads:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
Anyway, if these clowns came from normal-looking parents and their fry are raised with good water conditions, will their offspring have a higher percent chance of having flared gills? That's what I'd like to know; if something is caused by mal-nutrition or poor water conditions, then it's not genetic so it shouldn't be heridatary. But, I don't know that it's not genetic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

None of clown deformities,misbarring ,etc. are genetic.Mutations just donÃ"šÃ‚´t happen so easily or frequently.(Unless you keep your fish in outer space,subject to cosmic radiations )

The above was IMHO (which IÃ"šÃ‚´m positive is right):lol:
 
Ahhh, NOW I see the worm can I've opened :( I'm sorry, really, I didn't know :eek2: Next, can you guys tell me if the world was "made" or "just happened" ? :smokin:
 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Now that you rose to mystic/philosophical heights,IÃ"šÃ‚´ll say just one more thing,and then promise to shut up:p
A mutation is a permanent change in the genome,the genetic profile of every living organism.
Mutations,like miracles,do occur.Only that very rarely.:rolleyes:
 
Honestly I do not understand all this talk about mutations.

There are a lot more things involved in producing a certain element in genetics than a mutation.

Can two people with blond hair and blue eyes have a child with brown hair and brown eyes?!?!? Of course they can. Just like two noramally barred A. ocellairs can have misbarred offspring and normally barred offspring.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6755020#post6755020 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHardman
IMO I now feel that genetics play a bigger roll than anything else. The tricky part is that the environmental aspects also effect bar development. So if you have two fish that would have been normally barred, but something happened to prevent the normal development, then they are from a genetic standpoint still normally barred fish, even though they are misbarred.
Click to expand...
so just by looking at a misbarred clown, can you tell if the misbar happened because of genetics or environment?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6763288#post6763288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Armando
so just by looking at a misbarred clown, can you tell if the misbar happened because of genetics or environment?
Click to expand...

Nope, that is yet another thing with clownfish that you can not tell about them by looking at them.
 
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