Clownfish Pairing - What Next??

[Clowny88]

I have done a lot of reading on clownfish pairing and mating, but not seeing a lot of info on the in between pairing and spawning stages.

My tank is newly cycled, I am a month in. I have had my clowns in for 3 weeks. They were in 2 separate tanks. The regular percula was in a tank with 3 others and she was very dominant. The snowflake was in a frag tank by himself, was the submissive one before his partner was bought. I thought they'd make a good match.

So far, seems good. She goes at him as expected. He lays on his side and twitches for her. And sometimes he will even now go rub against her and twitch without being provoked first. They sleep together at the top of the tank in a little patch of BHA.

Things seem to be going really well. I plan on adding a bubble tip at the 6 month mark. My question is: How do I know when they are "fully paired"? Will she stop attacking him? And what will come next? How long after they are paired should I start focusing on getting them to spawn?

Thanks for all the help guys and gals! Here's pics... my 4 year old named them Salty and Sweet (pretty appropriate actually). Snowflake is the male and regular is the female.

 

[Misled]

The reason there isn't much out there is there isn't much to watch for. First having a nem doesn't help or hurt with spawning IMO. Mine were in the three to four years of age when they started. There were no nems in the tank, but they were being hosted by a large leather coral. They started laying eggs about every three to four weeks. I never tried to save them so after the eggs hatch the rest of the tank had a sushi bar till they were gone. After about six months they take a break for a couple months, then jump back into it again. They still peck and fight a bit. They can also be nasty little buggers. Mine will bite your finger if you stick it in the tank. Mine are both percs by the way.

 

[HunterBryan]

They will stay together all the time!! I had my female for about a year and she grew to be about 2 inches and then I bought my lil one about an inch. She was real hesitant at first with the smaller one but they soon feel in love haha. They stay attached a lot but sometime the bigger one will nip.

I have raised some fry from them and you can find my thread in the fish breeding forum. Very rewarding but man does it take some constant care and time. They stopped laying eggs about 5 months ago because I had to change some things around and they haven't had any more eggs since!

You must have good water chemistry for them to start mating and laying eggs! hope this helps a lil bit

 

[Clowny88]

Thanks for the replies! Great help!

Sounds like they are heading in the right direction. Focusing on getting my water parameters perfected... I guess we shall see what happens over the course of the year.

 

[Clowny88]

An update on my couple...

My female has been more aggressive, really laying into him, and he continues to submit... Not sure why she isn't backing off.

He now spends a lot of time hiding behind the power head. Even during feeding you can see he is hesitant to come out and eat.

At what point should I be concerned? He is visibly stressed, but it is early ad they have been tankmates for only about five weeks.

 

[Clowny88]

...Tonight he was getting his butt whooped again... Relentlessly. I noticed a couple white marks... On near his dorsal fin and one near his tail.

I don't think its crypto, maybe she took a ding out of him? She's being crazy aggressive. Worth putting up with to try and pair clowns???

 

[SteveZZR]

It's possible that the 'male' was alone long enough to become female, and now as the regular clown matures she will try to eliminate the other.

 

[Clowny88]

Wouldn't the 'male' be more aggressive then? I thought that too but he is completely submissive.

 

[Clowny88]

...and 'he' twitches like a maniac every time she attacks

 

[SteveZZR]

Might just be clowns being clowns mate; I decided to hold off on collecting mine until I got my upgrade (made sense having less transfers) so my saddle clown pair are still at the lfs waiting for me

 

[Clowny88]

Thanks for the response. I'm gonna try and get a pic or video up soon.

 

[Clowny88]

I think she's stressed him to the point of infection. A couple dots on his side... One by his left eye above his mouth. I think she's gotta go to save this guy. Qt time I think.

http://youtu.be/cgB3ifJX4NI

 

[Clowny88]

OK so that turned out useless... Here's a screenshot.

 

[Robert M]

My clowns have been together for almost a year, in my tank. The larger (female) has always beat up on the smaller (male) from day one. She doubled in size in the time he barely grew at all. Both eating well but she's a pig. She backed off for a while until I recently added my BTA. She took to it pretty quickly but kept him away. If he got close she would go after him. Now, a few weeks later, the male and female are both in the nem and very happy. She has backed off again but still gets her jabs in here and there.

As far as the shaking goes, I see it occasionally in this current setup but saw it constantly when I kept a mixed Malwian Cichlid tank. Its posturing... Basically, saying "back off!". I would think its similar here.

Not sure about the spots but it doesnt look great.

 

[ThRoewer]

OK so that turned out useless... Here's a screenshot.

It could be ich or just infected wounds. Cryptocaryon moves slow so I would wait for a few days to see if the spots go away or if they stay where they are. If they get bigger and then suddenly disappear it's likely ich. If they stay longer than a week it might be infected wounds.
In any case I would separate them and put him into a QT for observation. It would be a good idea to add something against bacterial infections, as they can get out of control quickly.
If it's ich, hyposalinity has worked well for me so far. If you want to be completely sure you can combine that with tank transfers (TTM) every 3 days for no less than 4 transfers.

As for making a pair of them - they are likely too close in size which may sometimes be a problem. I found it to be helpful to add another fish, like a damsel or a dottyback. Nothing unites more than a common enemy. Plus it keeps the females focus off the male and she can release her aggressions on someone else.
Ideally, to form a pair from sub adult clownfish you want to make sure that one is at least 10% larger than the other. The exception are Premnas - there you want to make sure that the male is at the most 1/3 of the females length.

 

[Midland246]

Complete newbie question here,

To what extent will the size of the tank and amount of rock and coral formation prevent this type of aggression when you are looking to breed?

Midland

 

[ThRoewer]

That really depends on the species you plan to breed and if they are already a pair or if you are trying to pair them up.
Ocellaris and percula should be fine in a 60 to 80 liter (~15 to 20 US gal.) tank. For anything of the clarkii complex I wouldn't go below 160 liter (~40 US gal.) because those guys get big.

It also helps if they have an anemone or some suitable substitute. Ceramic flower pots have always worked best for me. They also have the benefit that it is easy to steal the nest the evening before the eggs hatch:

One of my Solomon percula pairs back in the 90's:

My current pair to be:

Decoration can be sparse - some live rocks if you want it to look halfway nice or just a bunch of broken flower pot chards. I would also skip on sand or gravel for easier cleaning.

I like to put my clownfish pairs with pairs of dottybacks, preferably P. fridmani as they are the least aggressive and it is easy to pick male and female. And they are readily available from ORA through various online stores.
Dottybacks don't need much encouragement to spawn when you have a male and a female and it will get the clownfish into the mood too. And more importantly it will make the clownfish to bond stronger by protecting their territory.

 

[Clowny88]

I found it to be helpful to add another fish, like a damsel or a dottyback. Nothing unites more than a common enemy. Plus it keeps the females focus off the male and she can release her aggressions on someone else.

This is a great idea... I might be too late though. I'm setting up a 20g hospital tank and I just dont think its enough space to keep her from killing him. (Going with med treatment rather than TTM).

I can see you have run your fair share with clowns!

 

[ThRoewer]

I have my two clowns and two fridmani in a 10 gallon hospital tank. I added the female fridmani later and she is the same size or even a slightly bigger than the male an therefore not very compliant to his advances. The have been fighting for a while and look right now like freshly plucked chicken - but their fins will heal and the female will give in in the end.
If you want to keep your two clowns apart without separating them I would get a tank divider. You can make one by yourself from some eggcrate or just buy one from your nearest Petco or Petsmart. That way they can see each other without hurting the other.

I had a lot of clownfish, even such elusive species as A. chrysogaster and A. latezonatus (the latter are really hard to keep alive)

 

[Clowny88]

Thanks for all the input. The spots cleared up on my male, so I'm assuming a very slight case of ich. Female went back to LFS. Im moving him to hospital tank just to be sure and letting the tank go fallow.

I'll probably let this guy become a gal and add a smaller fish next time I add a 2nd clown.