Clownfish suddenly aggressive toward fancy guppies

jamesck

New member
I have two juvenile clownfish, one normal orange ocellaris, one wyoming white. The pecking order has always been the wyoming white being the alpha of the tank, and the orange being subdominant/male, and the guppies just did their own thing. Lately the orange ocellaris has taken to biting the tails off the female guppies. Sometimes it is just one bite, sometimes it is the entire tail, and he drags the flailing guppy to the filter intake. He did over 5 in one day, and it all started with this strange 'herding' behavior, where he would herd all of the guppies into one school in the corner, and then dive through the center of them, and sometimes biting tails. The clownfish are still pretty small, I got them as juveniles in November, but I'm closer to the guppies, who actively keep my zoanthids algae-free, and breed easier.

Tank size is 40 breeder, water params stable, constant 77.9F, 8hrs on, 16hrs dark, skimmate hasn't changed, no other tank mates, some coral frags, calcium/strontium/magnesium all stable, last major event was a small algae bloom a few months back. I'm genuinely at a loss for the cause of the sudden aggression other than the possibility of the clowns getting ready to breed. The bigger of the two, the wyoming white, shows no aggression and lets the guppies eat first, even though the orange's aggression isn't during feeding time. The wyoming white only shows aggression toward the orange, but not in a violent way, more like a fin nipping, which could be seen as mating behavior.

I could just be over-reacting, but there's a few guppies in there right now floating around on stumps and it has me feeling a little bad for them, because I don't want to have to find a home for the clowns or set up a new tank.
 
You could try temporarily housing the clownfish in a separate tank/sump and placing him back in and hope he will of calmed down.
Another option could be a floating breeder box to separate him.
These methods are hit and miss but if he is damaging live stock then it's worth a try.
If you do decide to try it then I would rearrange the rock work before he is added back to the tank.

Maybe someone else has a better idea but this worked for me when I added my percula to my occelaris.

Good luck.


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Thanks Chief!


I got orange fella in a breeder box w/ a lid, moved the rocks around, and added some new coral frags. Hopefully this is enough to alter his sense of ownership; it's already got the guppies swimming differently, when they usually just clump up and swarm around the tank.
 
Preparing to breed always spikes aggression in my perculas, although your guy sounds a little young for that. Glad to hear the temporary "fish jail" is working!
 
How long did you spend acclimating the guppies? 2 weeks?

I don't have anything to add on the aggression although I can say from experience more aggressive freshwater fish would also nip the fins of the guppies. They may not the the best on evading nippers but hopefully the breeder box helps!


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Well guys, I have some bad news, and then some good news... I eventually put the clown by himself in a low flow AquaClear refugium, which was bigger than the breeder box, and he seemed a lot more "calm" in there, but today I got to feeling bad and let him out, and as soon as I did, he grabbed the first female guppy he saw and bit the tail clean off :(


The good news is I spoke with the girlfriend and she isn't too attached to the little guy, so I'm going to take him up to the shops this weekend and try to trade for a cleaner shrimp or something less threatening.
 
How long did you spend acclimating the guppies? 2 weeks?

No, I set up a drip into a 5 gallon bucket about 1 drop per second, with an overpowered air stone clipped to the drip line to ensure even mixing of the fresh and saltwater. When the bucket was full, everything got dumped back in the reef. The only guppies that died are the ones that were infected/sick/weak/damaged to begin with, but the rest of them thrived, so I'd say like 19/20 made it. They're in there breeding and birthing, so it can't be too hard on them if they're reproducing in the reef.
 
Also, let me add, the success rate of fresh to saltwater seemed to reach diminishing returns around 4hrs, so as long as I acclimated them in over 4 hours, I had about the same returns as if I do the 1 drop per second thing, which takes somewhat longer. One variable that increased survival rates significantly was heating and feeding in the bucket while the acclimation was taking place. I still acclimate them the slow way, at 1 drop per second, not because it works any better, but just because it feels more humane than plopping them in there straight away.
 
That is pretty impressive. I will have to try that. My last acclimation was a failure and I would like to be able to have them breeding in the tank to feed my fish.

Hopefully your clowns stop nipping them!


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Interesting - your guppy acclimation sounds very similar to my own experiences with molly acclimation. I found the drop in temperature (w/o a heater in the bucket) really hurt survival rates over long acclimation periods. I usually do a 5-hour acclimation now, in a heated bucket, and I do feed a little about halfway through.
 
That is pretty impressive. I will have to try that. My last acclimation was a failure and I would like to be able to have them breeding in the tank to feed my fish.

Hopefully your clowns stop nipping them!


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Thanks, me too :) What's your acclimation procedure and parameters like? Water here in memphis is very very soft and low nutrient, so I keep my freshwater guppy tank full of aragonite to buffer the pH and hardness before they move into saltwater, which is full hardness with a high pH. I think raising the fry in this environment somewhat eases the transition to salt; also I heard guppies love hard water, so that may be why they don't show signs of stress.
 
Interesting - your guppy acclimation sounds very similar to my own experiences with molly acclimation. I found the drop in temperature (w/o a heater in the bucket) really hurt survival rates over long acclimation periods. I usually do a 5-hour acclimation now, in a heated bucket, and I do feed a little about halfway through.

Mollies sure are hearty fish. I remember the first time I acclimated one to saltwater, I didn't know any better and just dropped him in to a nano saltwater, and somehow he survived long enough to outlive everything in the tank.
 
Thanks, me too :) What's your acclimation procedure and parameters like?


It was a disaster. Previously I did mollies with a drip but they didn't fare well and I read that they live in environments that change salinity quickly so they would be okay dropping them in. When I did the "instant" acclimation it went well and they lived quite a while (months). So then I was at petco getting companion(s)!for my male molly and they had a sale on guppies and I had been interested in them and uncharacteristically didn't research their acclimation before I bought them... I got home and then looked it up (dumb) and then realized people were saying they needed a longer acclimation (2w). I was kind of stressed out and petco was closed and I didn't want them to die since I didn't have a FW setup sooo I added a half cup of saltwater every 15 min to a half gallon bucket for an amount of time I can't remember. They seemed happy in the tank but didn't last the 6H mark so I am positive I accidentally murdered them. Feel quite guilty.

Anyways the water here is quite hard.

When you do your acclimation in the 5gal bucket how much FW water did you have to start?




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When you do your acclimation in the 5gal bucket how much FW water did you have to start?

When you do your acclimation in the 5gal bucket how much FW water did you have to start?

I use a 5gal bucket with about 3-4" of water in the bottom (I only fill enough to cover the small heater that is suction cupped to the bottom)- I estimate it would be between a quart and a half-gallon of fresh water. I have used tank water, and I have used water out of the tap with a few drops of sodium thiosulfate (aquifer in memphis, tn, 7.0pH soft). Not a whole lot of difference (judging by survival rate) in which water I use, so I just use whichever is most convenient, usually tank water.

I put about 10-20 guppies in the bucket, adding more water if I need to so everybody can swim around a bit while the bucket fills. Starting drip rate is about 1 drop per second. I start slower in the beginning and observe for signs of stress in the first two hours. The first two hours seems to be the window where murphy's law kicks in, and if something will go wrong, this is when it usually will go wrong.

Problems to look for that indicate things aren't going well is any lateral motion while swimming, meaning if the guppy is rocking like a boat from side to side at all, or hugging the walls, or being pushed around by the airation, get him back in the freshwater and consider it not to be a candidate for future moving. If the guppy goes into this transition with any type of sickness or damage, it has significantly lesser chance of survival, I've noticed. I draw the line at nipped fins. No guppies with any type of fin damage, in my opinion, should be attempted.

One thing I've noticed is that if the guppy does get food reliably in the first few hours after being brought into the tank, it won't go searching for it, and they can waste pretty quickly. I usually drop some tiny sinking pellets (the ones I use are the garlic bites or whatever for clownfish, it's in a blue container with a little spoon) in each hiding spot where they clump up, like in the top corners.

For about the first week, you have a lot who are hanging around at the top, but once you get the 'alpha' of the tribe to venture into the coral, it's a done deal, and before you know it, you've just activated a hoard of algae slaying 2 dollar monsters in your tank. I have seen 20 guppies mow down 6 inch brown and green hair algae off the back wall of an established 40 breeder in 48 hours. Watch out for the nitrates though, because these guys eat so much algae, you'll see little black strings of poop gathering up on the bottom of your tank fast, which I usually siphon out with a smaller hose to have stronger suction while losing less water. Other than algae, I only feed about 10% more of the little sinking crumbles than I normally would for my two clownfish, and the guppies stay hungry and go into cleanup mode, picking up anything that fell into the live rock, or under the edge of a piece of coral.

If your guppies are stuck at the surface, one thing that worked for me is changing the scape around the tank, drastically, just like when you introduce new cichlids, is the key to getting everyone well integrated into the tank. You may not realize a tank with 40 guppies in it has even 1 or two unless you look from the top down because the plastic rim of the tank tends to cover them up at the top, that's why I place so much emphasis on the way I feed them, so that they literally have to nut up and do some exploring if they want to eat.

I hope I haven't talked your ear off about it!
 
Awesome detailed advice. Thanks!

Do you use one of those drip acclimation kits or do you just tie off some airline tubing?


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I use 2 sections of black airline tubing that are each ~6 inches, and one that is 3 feet long, connected in a candy-cane configuration with several of these attenuator attachments I got in an airline kit. http://imgur.com/D0xWTES

I put the hook end of this hose-monster into the tank, open the valves, and give it one tiny puff like a draw off a smoke to start the siphon. I then adjust the little attenuator until it reaches 1 drop per second, and then zip tie the drip line to an air line so that the drip runs down the air line right into the spot where the air is stirring up the water so that the salt water being introduced is evenly dispersed and doesnt sink to the bottom.
 
Clownfish suddenly aggressive toward fancy guppies

Ah. I will have to look into the cost-effectiveness of getting those thingies versus buying a kit!


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