Colorful reef safe free swimming fish?

I have 3 squamis, a male bartlett and 5 chromis that swim together, sometimes with the one spot foxface along with the group.
I also have an 8 year old royal gramma that was not bothered by the addition of 2 more small royals. They hang :rolleye1: together some but mostly have their own spot.
 
Sorry to correct you but Anthias are best kept singly or in a small school of 6 or more. So in this case I would advise one because two will certainly fight.
I like the Lyretail Anthias and they are quite hardy though fickle eaters at first, now they are pigs :D

I have never had a problem or heard of anyone else having a problem keeping anthias in groups under 6. Could you elaborate?
 
Sure thing :wavehand:

Pseudanthias have a complex social structure and they are hermaphroditic. This is a one way journey from non-gender to female to male. If a dominant male perishes, the largest female of the group will often develop into a male to take his place. The quotes below discuss grouping of Pseudanthias. Some of the articles don't necessarily support what I have said persay but I think I am correct that keeping two is generally risky. The main point is that Pseudanthias establish a pecking order that can lead to severe bullying and small groups help weaker fish hide; the aggro is dispersed. I have incl. several sources to show that this thinking isn't isolated (I'm not making this stuff up! ;) )

'If you are going to attempt to keep an anthias shoal, your chances of success will increase if the composition of the group consists principally of juvenile and female individuals. You should add only one male to the aquarium, unless the tank is large enough to accommodate more. Even then, the ratio should be highly skewed toward juveniles and/or females (a good rule of thumb would be one male to every four to six females/juveniles). Fortunately, the majority of anthias species are sexual dichromatic (that is, males and females differ in color).'

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=267

'The Lyretail Anthias does best when kept in a group and housed in a species-specific aquarium of at least 125 gallons in size. Male Lyretail Anthias are best kept alone or with several females. Though the Lyretail Anthias generally occupy the middle of the aquarium, it appreciates the availability of several hiding places.'

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+20+54&pcatid=54

'One of the better and *more readily available* Anthias for the aquarium. If you want a group of Anthias, this is one of the best to go for. This species is a hardy and bold Anthias species. (Bold for an Anthias, that is.) It is best to keep solitary individuals, or a group consisting of one male to several females, unless you have a large aquarium. Provide plenty of water movement and open swimming space. Great for reef tank.'

http://www.marinecenter.com/fish/anthias/orangelyretailanthias/

'In hobby literature, the long-touted lore of Anthias needing to be kept in groups is a bit in error. It's true that many live in very large shoals or schools in the wild, sometimes numbering in the thousands. But in specific groups and harems, there is a decided pecking order and often considerable intraspecific aggression. With their natural territories consisting of many square meters in the wild, the compression of a harem into a home aquarium results in quite an abnormal situation, regardless of the size of the display (short of public-aquarium sized displays). Weaker or more passive individuals get singled out and harassed quickly, but they cannot escape far enough away to quell the aggressor, as they can in the wild. Thus, such practical realities make us reconsider what it will take to keep (or not keep) Anthiines captively.

Give Anthias very large aquariums (at least a couple hundred gallons) to allow them a better chance of surviving a full lifespan. It is difficult to give a rule of thumb on stocking densities for the dozens of species encountered in the aquarium trade, but I'll suggest a rough guideline of one "Anthias" per 75 gallons (285 liters) of water. I strongly encourage aquarists unable or unwilling to dedicate such space to consider keeping a single specimen of one of the hardier varieties.'

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-04/ac/index.php

An excellent in depth article:

'Remember, with the more aggressive anthias you will consistently have the best success keeping only one specimen per tank. One of the only drawbacks in keeping some male anthias, like P. squamipinnis, in an aquarium without conspecifics is that their coloration may change and become more like that of the female. (We'll talk a little more about this later.)

The other possibility, if you want a group of anthias, is to crowd a smaller tank (at least a 75 gallon tank) with female specimens (at least 10 individuals in the shoal). You often see this in some of the European tanks. Big beautiful tanks FULL of anthias! In this way a dominance hierarchy will be more difficult for them to maintain and rather than one or two subordinate fish being the recipients of all the abuse, aggression is spread around the captive population. Analogous I guess to what a lot of fw aquarists do with African cichlids. If you decide to try this procedure it is important to introduce all the shoal members at once. The problem with loading your tank with anthias is that you will limit the number of other fish species you can have, possibly put an excessive biological load on your filter system and increase the chances of a disease epidemic.'

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/s_michael_030401.html
 
I don't agree with your info from liveaquaria because it is talking about the male of the species and yes it should be housed alone or with females not just males... and I think we can agree a species specific tank is not needed...

I agree there may be some aggression, but I think people take the ratio of fish in the wild to ratio of fish in the aquarium way too seriously. Does the concept of resources ever factor in? Maybe they are so far apart in the wild because if they were closer they couldn't feed enough to feed them all...

And yes they have a pecking order, but so do dwarf angels or any haremic fish.

BUT I do totally agree a larger tank with a highly skewed ratio of females to males would be ideal!
 
Sure anything is possible but we are trying to make educated guesses as to the most probible outcomes.

I don't agree with your info from liveaquaria because it is talking about the male of the species and yes it should be housed alone or with females not just males... and I think we can agree a species specific tank is not needed...

Species specific is unnecessary :p But remember the females fight for dominence until one changes into a male. It is not unusual for anthias to die from stress in these situations.

I agree there may be some aggression, but I think people take the ratio of fish in the wild to ratio of fish in the aquarium way too seriously. Does the concept of resources ever factor in? Maybe they are so far apart in the wild because if they were closer they couldn't feed enough to feed them all...
BUT I do totally agree a larger tank with a highly skewed ratio of females to males would be ideal!

Food supply is a factor in aggression but I think space and pecking order are important too. The tank is a confined space, which means that aggression is hard to escape, while in the wild you just swim away. When diving I have noticed some fish species take up residence in a spot while others roam looking for food. Anthias are a schooling fish so we must consider their grouping patterns. In shops and youtube(!) you see all manner of combinations but the test is how they work in the medium to long term. [I'm sure you are aware of this just making the point]

My Anthias have a definate pecking order and 3 months in, the less dominent fish are still small and timid while the dominent female is turning into a male and still chases the other anthias especially at feeding time. Once the dominent fish has transformed into a full male, I expect the pecking order will be established and aggro should settle down, all this in a relatively large, lightly stocked tank.

I commented on your suggestion because I fear, from my research that a small group of 2 to 4 increases the potential for dangerous aggro as these fish fight for dominence. Surely two anthias woud fight it out until one dies from stress or starvation? In my experience the only thing which has stopped the weakest of my anthias alive is that she can run and hide and that the dominent anthias get distracted and chase a different anthias. If you doubt the aggro of these beautiful fish I can attest that the dominent anthias tried to take on my yellow tang when the anthias entered the tank - one swift tail swipe put the anthias in her place :lolspin:

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.
 
Orchid dottyback. And they can be found aquacultured.

+1

A pair or group of Orchids are fantastic to watch, and take up zero swimming room while adding lots of activity and color in the rock work, and yes, they are acuacultured! :dance:
 
... My Anthias have a definate pecking order and 3 months in, the less dominent fish are still small and timid while the dominent female is turning into a male and still chases the other anthias especially at feeding time. Once the dominent fish has transformed into a full male, I expect the pecking order will be established and aggro should settle down, all this in a relatively large, lightly stocked tank.

I have had a lyretail trio for a couple of years now and I can tell you that the dominant fish has not calmed down. It is twice as large as the smallest and were the same size females when i got them.
The male is more aggressive with the 2 females now. I suspect that he is close (still not fully color changed) to being sexually mature and ready to go., as it were.
It is not aggressive with other fish but it does try to get the lone bartlett to join in.
 
Thanks for all the first hand experience I am by no means an anthias expert. I usually recommend a fathead for any smaller tanks too because they do well alone and are very colorful, just not as active as other anthias.

Its interesting you both have lyretails, I have heard of squarebacks being super mean before, but not so much lyretails. I have kept bartletts with no problems, it was a group of three in a 75. One turned male, but there wasn't much harassing.
 
I started with 2 small bartletts (should have been 3 in hindsight) and they both wanted to be the male. Only 1 fish survives. The other found a hole and took wing.
 
I've never had more than 3 or 4 lyretails in my tank. Never had a problem. Bartletts, same thing, except multiple males develop, so there is always "tension" in the tank with those bugggers. Same with ignitus and dispar, 3 or 4 did fine. I just personally have never had the experience that you need one or 6 or more.
 
Thank you all.

Looked for 2 months for a McCoskers but no luck. Ended with a very pretty Carpenters Wrasse who I have seen more in 1 week then in the 3 months with my Clown.
 
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