Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

[Paul B]

Thanks Capt.
Greenbean, I do respect you and I am not argueing with you. I know that the trophants burrow into the outer layer of the skin. Outer layers of fish skin is different from ours and consists of a thick coat of slime.
This is the reason the paracites could multiply and fall off the fish.
I guess you could say they are slightly internal for lack of a better phrase. I also diden't say fish can't develop an immune response, I said I diden't know. I also am not sure if I agree with Burgess's findings, I don't nesecarilly disagree not experimenting myself. And no, I don't consider myself to be smarter than he is but I have been dealing with ich as long as he has so I can have an opinion.
Burgess may be totally correct and I hope he is. I hope fish can develop an immunity as they seem to be able to.
I just think there is something else going on with this paracite that makes fish immune in one tank and fatal in another.
When I first had saltwater fish in the seventees my fish would always die from ich unless I added copper. They never developed an immunity as they do now. I imagine I keep them much healthier now but I was also breeding them then.
Anyway, Have a great day and I enjoy this conversation.
Also, I could be completely wrong in my assumptions not being the God of ick.



:lol:

 

[Paul B]

Greenbean, something else to think about. If fish can develop an
immunological memory to ich paracites, what means does the fish immune system have to eject the paracite?
Immune systems are designed to destroy viruses, bacteria and tiny particles, smaller than a blood cell but what would they do to a paracite which is a hard shelled invertibrate hundreds of times the size of a white blood cell.
If you get a splinter your immune system will send white blood cells, macrophages and whatever to evict the invader. The area will turn red and maybe get warm but that splinter isn't going anywhere until you pull it out with a tweezers.
And after that, you will still be able to get another splinter no matter what your immune system does.
Also, Burgess was studying Seabreams. Seabreams are commonly used for study (although I don't know why)
In the numerous small tropical fish that I disected with ich I did not find that the paracite completely was embedded in the gills of the fish. It could not have because the gill filiments of a typical 1" damsel are thinner than an ich paracite. It looked to me like the paracites were just hanging on and in a 1" fish it only takes a couple of dozen paracites to cause enough damage to cause death. A seabream is a much larger fish and the paracites could embed.
But I know you are a marine biology student and I am curious as to the mechanism the fish would use to release a paracite and not permit other paracites to grab on.
This is my big problem with ich immunity.
I hope you can explain it to me because it has bothered me for many years.
Take care.
Paul

 

[Aquarist007]

your not the only one enjoying this dialogue

 

[Aquarist007]

Paul, I think you mentioned that you have dove on alot of reefs.
I only did once but in the early 70's--Cayman Island

do you have any links to some videos of other reefs--would love to watch them now with a more informed eye.

 

[Paul B]

Captn. I don't have any links to reef diving. I myself have been diving since 1970. My first dive was when I was on R&R from Nam. It was in Australia. Since then I have dove most of the Caribbean and Bahamas, Four Hawaiian Islands and three Islands in Tahiti. The majority of my diving is in New York.
I used to have a sea urchin collecting business and I dive alot for lobsters and just exploring shipwrecks.
I too enjoy diving in the Caymans.
Most of the bottles in my reef were collected in the Long Island Sound.
Many of them where this picture was taken at the Execution Lighthouse which was commissioned by George Washington in the center of the western Sound.
Captn. you must be an old guy like me, I was born in Brooklyn in the late fortees.

 

[greenbean36191]

I just think there is something else going on with this paracite that makes fish immune in one tank and fatal in another.

I agree and I think Burgess would too. I don't think anyone knows what causes some fish to become immune and others not to other than just the sort of cop-out answer of "individual differences." It's an interesting question, but I doubt we'll ever have an answer though, which is why QT is still important.

Greenbean, something else to think about. If fish can develop an
immunological memory to ich paracites, what means does the fish immune system have to eject the paracite?
Immune systems are designed to destroy viruses, bacteria and tiny particles, smaller than a blood cell but what would they do to a paracite which is a hard shelled invertibrate hundreds of times the size of a white blood cell.

I'm not an immunologist and I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so I don't really have a good answer about how it works. Based on my very basic knowledge of immunology and parasitology I would guess that the fish aren't destroying existing trophonts, but preventing future trophonts from penetrating. They seek out their host chemically and then there are chemical cues that let them know they found one, to shed their cilia, and then to start burrowing in. If the fish can disrupt cues anywhere along that way it would prevent the infection. There has been a lot of work on FW ich vaccines, so someone probably has a pretty good grasp on the immunological mechanism for fighting off ciliates like this, but I haven't read anything on the subject.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11144660#post11144660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Captn. I don't have any links to reef diving. I myself have been diving since 1970. My first dive was when I was on R&R from Nam. It was in Australia. Since then I have dove most of the Caribbean and Bahamas, Four Hawaiian Islands and three Islands in Tahiti. The majority of my diving is in New York.
I used to have a sea urchin collecting business and I dive alot for lobsters and just exploring shipwrecks.
I too enjoy diving in the Caymans.
Most of the bottles in my reef were collected in the Long Island Sound.
Many of them where this picture was taken at the Execution Lighthouse which was commissioned by George Washington in the center of the western Sound.
Captn. you must be an old guy like me, I was born in Brooklyn in the late fortees.

Paul Iam as young as you are-----1949

:smokin:

 

[Paul B]

Like I said Capn, we are old guys.
Bean. Love the avitar, who is that?
Anyway, another thing to think about. I believe most fish are hosts to paracites almost continousely in the sea, you would think that wild caught fish would have some sort of immunity but almost as soon as they are collected and confined they develop ich. If it were not for copper, there would be no salt water hobby.
With malaria, humans are infected with paracites. The paracites are with us for life. Our bodies can't get rid of them. Our immune system probably recognizes them as invaders but because they are much larger than a normal enemy, our systems are helpless and we need medication to rid ourselves of them.
The medication we use for that is quinicrine hydrocloride which is what I use along with copper for ich infections.
I had to take a pill every day in Viet Nam to protect me from malaria, I don't know what it was but I would like to for some tests on ich. I wonder if you could feed it to fish if it would have any benefit. I doubt it because ich does not really travel with the blood but maybe it could be used in the water.
I need to get some of that but it probably gives you cancer so it is not on the market.
Paul

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

That is not the case at all. The human immune system (and I'm guessing fish immune systems as well) have ways of dealing with foreign invaders of all shapes and sizes. In the case of larger parasites, our body has pro-inflammatory factors that can recognize the presence of a non-self body. This causes a cascade of events that leads to the body depositing antibodies and scar tissue on the surface of the foreign invader. Eventually, the body will wall off the invader. In the case of larger parasites (ones that the white blood cells and macrophages cannot directly attack), this walling off would kill them by essentially starving them. Problem is that parasites have evolved mechanisms for avoiding triggering the inflammatory response for their specified hosts. It is often a very specific strategy, which is why most parasites only infect certain creatures. Sometimes the host also manages to evolve a specific defense against a parasite. For instance, sickle cell anemia, while a painful and debilitating condition, is very effective at warding off malaria.

As far as why fish are able to mount a defense against Ich in the wild and not after being collected, I'm guessing that stress simply weakens their immune systems enough for the parasite to become unmanageable. Ich is perhaps already present in a sort of quasi-static equilibrium in the fish, whereby the Ich defends itself enough to avoid being eradicated and the fish protects itself enough to avoid a serious infestation.

 

[Paul B]

Thank you aninje etc.
I still am not sure about an immune response protecting a fish from paracites. I know the body will make antibodies from any invader but like bullets, paracites should be able to attach to a fish no matter what the immune system does. Ich paracites don't stay on the fish long enough to be "walled off" and in any case it does not stop them in the first place.
So immunity from paracites, IMO does not happen.
I want to know why some fish like mine for instance are not affected.
Any one else want to give it a try? Anyone know any professors of immuniology who have a fish tank :lol:

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Bullets don't have to breathe and eat to cause a problem. For parasites, all the walling off has to accomplish is to prevent the parasite from deriving nutrients and oxygen. It can happen really quick if the body is able to recognize the invader and rally the necessary antibodies and leukocytes.

Stress is known to severely hamper immune systems. This can result in infections that the body would normally have the capacity to resist. You don't have to be a professor of immunology to understand this. Besides, what would a professor of human immunology have to say beyond outlying the basics of how the immune system works? Unless they've studied this particular parasite and fish immune systems, they wouldn't know the specifics.

I'm not saying I know this to be a fact that this is why fish in the ocean don't suffer from Ich like some fish in the aquarium. I'm just trying to add what I feel is the most likely scenario, an educated guess. I'm also trying to enlighten against some obvious misinformation. Until someone comes along that actually knows the specifics of this parasite and fish immunology, all we have is educated guesses.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11150488#post11150488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B

Bean. Love the avitar, who is that?

Paul

Like I said Paul you are 58 yrs young

Many people have asked that question--but greenbean ain't telling.
Someone actually mentioned it was one of Hugh's girls---I should have looked it up at the time--but:lol: got to keep on track here--on track here--on track her:rollface: :lol: :rollface:

 

[Philwd]

Jeff Garcia's wife. Bucs qback. POY a few years back. Carmella.

 

[Ninong]

Just do a google image search for Carmela DeCesare.

 

[Paul B]

I should have known that. I used to know some of the girls, I helped build the New York Playboy club in the seventees.
I still have 4 bunny suits that I will be selling on E Bay some day.
I also was the foreman for Penthouse Magazine when we built them a new office in Manhattan.
Anyway thanks Aninjaatemyshoe. Thats why I said an immunoligist with a fish tank.
I personally feel it has something to do with the captive water in our tanks. I think some tanks are just inhospitable to ich paracites. Maybe it's the small water volume or the pollution or even the lights.
I still think that if fish harbor paracites in the sea and if they could become immune then they would be immune when they are collected.
There are many things we are not sure about in this hobby because most studies of fish are done with food fish and food fish problems. Ich is not a concern for them because ich does not kill fish in the sea.
Algae is another aspect that has been studied to death but I also have a big problem with the current wisdom.
There is no algae in my tank now and I have not changed any water in a long time, maybe months. I know from experience that a few days after I change water the algae will grow yet when someone has an algae problem the first thing people say to do is to change water. I tell people that this MAY make the problem worse depending on your tank chemistry and what nutrients are in your make up water.
I eliminate algae in a lighted trough which grows algae and I remove it. After a while it stops growing. I, Of course know I have to change the water for the benefit of the animals but changing water is not always the "cure" for an algae attack. It could be, but not always. I am not telling people to stop changing water, I am not even implying it. I experiment for my own experience and I am just publishing my findings.
Some day we will eliminate ich, algae and ugly aquascaping while improving our avitars :eek1:
Have a great day and I am really enjoying this discussion.
Paul :beer:

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11153882#post11153882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B

Algae is another aspect that has been studied to death but I also have a big problem with the current wisdom.
There is no algae in my tank now and I have not changed any water in a long time, maybe months. I know from experience that a few days after I change water the algae will grow yet when someone has an algae problem the first thing people say to do is to change water. I tell people that this MAY make the problem worse depending on your tank chemistry and what nutrients are in your make up water.
I eliminate algae in a lighted trough which grows algae and I remove it. After a while it stops growing. I, Of course know I have to change the water for the benefit of the animals but changing water is not always the "cure" for an algae attack. It could be, but not always. I am not telling people to stop changing water, I am not even implying it. I experiment for my own experience and I am just publishing my findings.
Some day we will eliminate ich, algae and ugly aquascaping while improving our avitars :eek1:
Have a great day and I am really enjoying this discussion.
Paul :beer:

The norm of many many posts on this site and others say a first line of attack on algae is to stop the nutrient source. And usually a first suggestion is to analze your feeding methods (assuming you are using r/o water) I just wonder if there is such a thing as an aglae free system.
Point being I consistently follow the "norm" practises for controlling phosphates--feeding techinques, rinsing frozen food, water changes, big mother fuge full of chaeto etc etc.
Every second or third day I will come home and find the front glass covered with nuisance aglae. the only variable I can attribute this to is the amount of sunlight entering the room that day.
I am aware that light is needed in the photosynthesis as well as a food source and well as carbon dioxide.

Point being --the algae spores are in the water--just waiting for one or more of the three needs of photosynthesis to occur slighlty more then normal.

As with phosphates, it would seem like it is impossible to have zero of those either. Many zero readings of phosphates occur because the algae is eating it up as fast as it is produced.

I would add that you can probably get close to zero algae if you are running a uv sterilzer. IMO these are the most unnatural counter productive methods to use in your tank. If you are running a refuge, chaeto etc then algae along with inverts and useful bacteria are going to be produced only to get nuked--the two systems together just don't make sense.

Are these misconceptions?

as far as the improvement in avitars----can't see why you would feel gb's needs improvement :smokin:

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11152850#post11152850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Just do a google image search for Carmela DeCesare.

Adult content link removed.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

PaulB, regarding the algae after a water change, are you using a RODI unit? If so, changed the filters lately?

 

[Paul B]

Lobster, I do use a RO/DI and I changed the membrane recently as well as the DI resins.
Capn. you can't get nitrates and phosphates to zero no matter how good your water change methods and skimmers. If you feed there will be these pollutants. You can't cure algae because it is not a disease but a natural part of any reef. If it were not for algae there would be no tangs, urchins and slugs. If you removed these herbifores the algae would take over the reef. If there is no algae growing in your system it may not be as healthy as you believe. Your corals harbor symbiotic algae also.
It is unfortunate that algae cover our corals because I find my corals growing better during an algae bloom except of course when the algae cover the coral.
I grow local Codium in my tank, it is free and the fish don't eat it. It grows like weeds on eastern Long Island.
I feel the most natural healthiest way to run a reef is to let the algae grow in a refugium and remove it manually.
Don't forget, I diden't say for anyone to stop changing water, I don't want hate mail. I am sure that after I removed enough algae I also removed some nutrient that algae needs. It will return when I change the water. How do I know? I have been doing this long enough to know exactly what will happen.
RO/DI isn't perfect but it is good enough for our purposes.
Even with these filters most of my corals recently dies as did the LFS a few blocks away when my town treated the water.
I am sure some of the zinc got through my filters as it has three times before.

There is no algae in my tank now but you can see the Codium.
The algae will return as it has for over 30 years. I don't worry about it as I know it is a sign of a healthy tank and not, as most people think a polluted tank.
Me and the algae have reached an agreement. It grows mostly where I want it to grow.
There is some thoughts that algae exudes some beneficial chemicals to the water. My fish seem very healthy and don't get diseases even after 10 or 15 years. Something is happening that seems healthful. I am just trying to learn like everyone else. I am at a point in my life that I can experiment without worrying about the consequences.
I will try to keep at this for the next fifty years. Maybe by then I will have answered all of my own questions.
Keep up the ideas guys and think outside the box.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[Aquarist007]

Paul--I believe we are saying and believe in the same thing here

I think there becomes a point when you don't fear algae anymore and look at its benifis also.
When algae goes on my front glass --i don't freak anymore--much to family disliking I let it grow for a few more days because it is consuming phosphates probably due to over feeding.

I like your statement "Me and the algae have reached an agreement" that is basic put profound and adds to my point that sooner or later you have to not fear algae.