Common Misconceptions In the Hobby
- Thread starter Peter Eichler
- Start date
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Absolutely not. With all of the other things new hobbyists worry about why in the world should we have them chasing a goal that can only hurt their animals? Stability is not a natural condition for reef animals. There is no evidence that it reduces stress, and it only makes the animals more sensitive to newbie mistakes.
Eric Borneman did some tests on several aquaria and found most to be around 80%-90% of saturation with the lights on and falling to about 75% after 2 hours with lights off.
I made that comment in regards to Sprung and Delbeek's mention that as you near an animal's limits they will use more oxygen. It's essentially a non-issue since even in the low to mid 80's your corals aren't near their limits unless you've acclimatized them to unnaturally cool temperatures. It had nothing to do with a recommendation of what temperature to run your tank at.
No, just allowing the temp in our tanks to swing back and forth doesn't replicate nature. It's much slower than what happens in the wild. When I was working in the Bahamas one of the guys at the research station had temp loggers placed all over the reef, (which was recovering, not declining). There was a 5-8 degree variation everyday and at least once that I saw there was a 6 degree change within 15 minutes, which was the periodicity of his readings. When I was doing my work nearby I saw too many 3 and 4 degree changes to count and at least one almost instant 6 degree change, which you can REALLY feel when it happens.
Here are some current graphs from a few reefs to give you an idea of what daily changes look like.
Guam:
FL Keys (during the summer, which is when there is the least variation):
Puerto Rico:
Not worrying about temperature swings helps the corals keep their natural tolerance to thermal stress. I have yet to see any evidence in the primary literature that normal temperature swings are a source of stress. Brian Helmuth's work that I mentioned earlier shows exactly the opposite. There was no stress response to increased temp up to 90 degrees from a coral kept under fluctuating conditions.
That's not quite what people are saying, but it's not true anyway. People are saying that if you keep things stable then corals are more vulnerable to any change in temp, higher or lower. Even if things aren't stable, keeping corals on the low end does make them more vulnerable to increased temps. However, it's slightly easier for corals from higher temps to deal with colder ones.
Last edited:
aninjaatemyshoe
New member
Is there a link to access this work by Brian Helmuth? I'd like to read it.
"4.) If the fact that temperatures in the 80's are completely natural and that temperature swings occur multiple times a day on a natural reef isn't convincing to you then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You should also consider the many very successful reef aquariums maintaining temps above 80 and having temp swings as not convincing."
I wasn't doubting that these temperatures are natural. If you carefully read what I wrote, I was doubting the direct correlation of what works in nature works in the aquarium. Certainly, natural conditions are something to strive for, but we have to accept some limitations. This is why I'd prefer to model my aquarium after what has been found to work within the aquarium hobby, not directly after reefs themselves (I don't have nearly enough resources to do that). Furthermore, I never debated that other people have had success with higher temperature tanks with temp swings. Its just that I view it more of a case of good luck and maintaining other parameters very well than a case of what one should follow.
"3.) Greenbean nor I are advocating someone strive for wild temperature fluctuations. Simply put, if your temperatures are going up a few degrees slowly through the course of a day when your metal halide lights go on it's nothing to worry about. Not only that, it's quite natural and very similar to what happens on a reef. "
Followed by a comment by Greenbean:
"No, just allowing the temp in our tanks to swing back and forth doesn't replicate nature. It's much slower than what happens in the wild. When I was working in the Bahamas one of the guys at the research station had temp loggers placed all over the reef, (which was recovering, not declining). There was a 5-8 degree variation everyday and at least once that I saw there was a 6 degree change within 15 minutes, which was the periodicity of his readings. When I was doing my work nearby I saw too many 3 and 4 degree changes to count and at least one almost instant 6 degree change, which you can REALLY feel when it happens."
I see some discrepency between what is suggested in terms of temp swings (few degrees warming over the day from MH vs. 6 degree shifts instantaneously).
This debate is starting to get wearisome. I'm not going to be able to convince you guys that we should strive for stable conditions, you guys aren't going to be able to convince me that wild temp swings are a good thing in the aquarium I'll read the Helmuth article if I can get access to it, then I'm out of it.
"4.) If the fact that temperatures in the 80's are completely natural and that temperature swings occur multiple times a day on a natural reef isn't convincing to you then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You should also consider the many very successful reef aquariums maintaining temps above 80 and having temp swings as not convincing."
I wasn't doubting that these temperatures are natural. If you carefully read what I wrote, I was doubting the direct correlation of what works in nature works in the aquarium. Certainly, natural conditions are something to strive for, but we have to accept some limitations. This is why I'd prefer to model my aquarium after what has been found to work within the aquarium hobby, not directly after reefs themselves (I don't have nearly enough resources to do that). Furthermore, I never debated that other people have had success with higher temperature tanks with temp swings. Its just that I view it more of a case of good luck and maintaining other parameters very well than a case of what one should follow.
"3.) Greenbean nor I are advocating someone strive for wild temperature fluctuations. Simply put, if your temperatures are going up a few degrees slowly through the course of a day when your metal halide lights go on it's nothing to worry about. Not only that, it's quite natural and very similar to what happens on a reef. "
Followed by a comment by Greenbean:
"No, just allowing the temp in our tanks to swing back and forth doesn't replicate nature. It's much slower than what happens in the wild. When I was working in the Bahamas one of the guys at the research station had temp loggers placed all over the reef, (which was recovering, not declining). There was a 5-8 degree variation everyday and at least once that I saw there was a 6 degree change within 15 minutes, which was the periodicity of his readings. When I was doing my work nearby I saw too many 3 and 4 degree changes to count and at least one almost instant 6 degree change, which you can REALLY feel when it happens."
I see some discrepency between what is suggested in terms of temp swings (few degrees warming over the day from MH vs. 6 degree shifts instantaneously).
This debate is starting to get wearisome. I'm not going to be able to convince you guys that we should strive for stable conditions, you guys aren't going to be able to convince me that wild temp swings are a good thing in the aquarium I'll read the Helmuth article if I can get access to it, then I'm out of it.
Aquarist007
New member
oops just got corrected on another misconception --thanks peter--
Feeding clams cyclopeeze is not recommended due to the size of it--one should stick to phyo.
Also lighting is not as great a concern with adult clams as the young since they can rely on established filter feeding more then the young
you have to love this thread
Feeding clams cyclopeeze is not recommended due to the size of it--one should stick to phyo.
Also lighting is not as great a concern with adult clams as the young since they can rely on established filter feeding more then the young
you have to love this thread
Peter Eichler
New member
For the fourth time... :rolleye1: Just because we are pointing out the conditions on a reef does not mean we're telling people to go out and try to replicate it. The original point was... "Stop worrying about your daily swing in temperature from your lights heating the water. There's no need to go buy expensive chillers or controllers to always maintain the same temperature. In addition to being pretty natural the temperature swing may be good for your aquarium inhabitants and make them less likely to succumb should you have a more major temperature swing. In closed aquaria I wouldn't suggest testing the limits of this, but if your swings are under 5 degrees from day to night I wouldn't worry much." At no point in this thread have either of us suggested big temperature sudden swings or testing the extremes of the temperature range for home aquaria.
Also, if you look at some of my other misconceptions you'll see that I suggest other parameters be maintained differently than what might be found in nature. I've never found temperature to be one of those things. In other words, don't make it sound like I'm suggesting we should follow the conditions of a reef when that's not how I go about my reef keeping practices.
Also, if you look at some of my other misconceptions you'll see that I suggest other parameters be maintained differently than what might be found in nature. I've never found temperature to be one of those things. In other words, don't make it sound like I'm suggesting we should follow the conditions of a reef when that's not how I go about my reef keeping practices.
Roy G. Biv
Premium Member
My temps over the last week.
My reef = Happy reef.
My reef = Happy reef.
zemuron114
In Memoriam
i personally worry alot about temp swings.. why? because i had a considerably higher temp swing then i normally do this summer in Boston when my tank hit 88. It was consistantly at 79-83 for a long time. 5 degrees doesn't sound like much, but it killed, 5 flame wrasse, rhomboids, lineatus, helfrich, tiny goldflake.... and started to deteriorate my hammer corals and killed 5 frags of SPS.
This to me is something worth mentioning and being concerned about... ? Its cut and dry when i look at it, or atleast from my experience.
Isn't it a proven fact that if the temp fluctuates more the 4 degrees in a 12 hour period it can cause enough stress on fish to cause ich? I've heard that multiple times from different "experts".
Just a thought. Overall, this is a great thread
This to me is something worth mentioning and being concerned about... ? Its cut and dry when i look at it, or atleast from my experience.
Isn't it a proven fact that if the temp fluctuates more the 4 degrees in a 12 hour period it can cause enough stress on fish to cause ich? I've heard that multiple times from different "experts".
Just a thought. Overall, this is a great thread
I can see this happening zemuron114. You've got what could be 9 degrees (88-79) of change going on there which is pushing it.
However, if your tank is running hotter in the summer during the day with lights on and cooler at night say maybe down to 79 then the thing to do is run/adjust the heater so the night time temps top out at 82. The corals get more used to the range of 82-85 during the course of the day and then have more "tolerance" of a couple of degrees either way from the tanks "natural" average.
In other words don't fight the temps but work you system into them. If you don't have a cooler don't sweat it but use the heaters to keep the tank more stable in the upper range!
That might sound strange. Use your HEATER instead of your COOLER in summer but it's true.
I've got 300 gallons outside (uncovered with no protection or UV filtration) and 1000 gallons inside all connected together. My night time temps would fall to about 75 with day temps at around 85. Instead of trying to cool the system down to 81 or 82 I instead heat the water at night to keep the temps at 81.5/82 and allow the tank to fluctuate in the 81.5/82-85 range daily. If it's a little hotter out and I go up to 87 or so it's no big deal this way. Same with a little colder if the heaters can't keep up at night.
I've got a bunch of fans and another 2K watts worth of heaters I can turn on if needed via the aquacontroller but I don't have my fans turn on until temps are over 87 and I don't fire up the 2nd array of heaters until temps go below 79. I WANT my corals to get a daily range of temps only a degree or two below the natural reef (since it's cheaper for me).
As for other parameters I keep Alk in the 10-11 dKH range and keep calcium at 420-440. I keep my pH pretty steady with about a .2 daily change but normally keep it nailed at my target of 8.45-8.50. I think pH should range in the 8.3-8.6 range like on the reefs. I keep ORP in the 380-420 range (trying to dial in 380-400). I'd allow Nitrates approach 10 but they never do in my system and test at 0 on my tanks these days since I've got so much sand and rock. I took my nitrate reactors off line last week so I'll see if nitrates come go up at all. I keep PO4 by meter in the .2 range which doesn't cause cyno or other problems but allows there to be enough in the tank for normal function. Mg, Strontium, Iodine, Iron, etc are tested about once a month and adjusted slowly if needed.
I don't do water changes and run a mixed reef tank, ray/shark tank, outside pond & trigger tank all of which are heavy stocked (expect pond cause it's new) and joined together. I do take water from my main system for QT use via UV filters and I skim wet with 3 protein skimmers (4th one ready to go online if needed) so I do add "some" salt water to the system daily which so far has taken care of micro nutrients.
I know many people will say you should do water changes but I don't have anything I need to export that I'm aware of and I test all major elements at least monthly and make corrections if needed. I add 10-30 gallons of salt water weekly to the system so I know my micro nutrients are taken care of. Hence no expensive water changes for me.
Carlo
PS If I did do water changes I would use 2 small pumps and change out a couple of gallons everyday so I never have to worry about stressing the system. I'm not a fan of water changes over 10% unless it's a dire emergency. I think normal water changes cause far more problems then temps do...
However, if your tank is running hotter in the summer during the day with lights on and cooler at night say maybe down to 79 then the thing to do is run/adjust the heater so the night time temps top out at 82. The corals get more used to the range of 82-85 during the course of the day and then have more "tolerance" of a couple of degrees either way from the tanks "natural" average.
In other words don't fight the temps but work you system into them. If you don't have a cooler don't sweat it but use the heaters to keep the tank more stable in the upper range!
That might sound strange. Use your HEATER instead of your COOLER in summer but it's true.
I've got 300 gallons outside (uncovered with no protection or UV filtration) and 1000 gallons inside all connected together. My night time temps would fall to about 75 with day temps at around 85. Instead of trying to cool the system down to 81 or 82 I instead heat the water at night to keep the temps at 81.5/82 and allow the tank to fluctuate in the 81.5/82-85 range daily. If it's a little hotter out and I go up to 87 or so it's no big deal this way. Same with a little colder if the heaters can't keep up at night.
I've got a bunch of fans and another 2K watts worth of heaters I can turn on if needed via the aquacontroller but I don't have my fans turn on until temps are over 87 and I don't fire up the 2nd array of heaters until temps go below 79. I WANT my corals to get a daily range of temps only a degree or two below the natural reef (since it's cheaper for me).
As for other parameters I keep Alk in the 10-11 dKH range and keep calcium at 420-440. I keep my pH pretty steady with about a .2 daily change but normally keep it nailed at my target of 8.45-8.50. I think pH should range in the 8.3-8.6 range like on the reefs. I keep ORP in the 380-420 range (trying to dial in 380-400). I'd allow Nitrates approach 10 but they never do in my system and test at 0 on my tanks these days since I've got so much sand and rock. I took my nitrate reactors off line last week so I'll see if nitrates come go up at all. I keep PO4 by meter in the .2 range which doesn't cause cyno or other problems but allows there to be enough in the tank for normal function. Mg, Strontium, Iodine, Iron, etc are tested about once a month and adjusted slowly if needed.
I don't do water changes and run a mixed reef tank, ray/shark tank, outside pond & trigger tank all of which are heavy stocked (expect pond cause it's new) and joined together. I do take water from my main system for QT use via UV filters and I skim wet with 3 protein skimmers (4th one ready to go online if needed) so I do add "some" salt water to the system daily which so far has taken care of micro nutrients.
I know many people will say you should do water changes but I don't have anything I need to export that I'm aware of and I test all major elements at least monthly and make corrections if needed. I add 10-30 gallons of salt water weekly to the system so I know my micro nutrients are taken care of. Hence no expensive water changes for me.
Carlo
PS If I did do water changes I would use 2 small pumps and change out a couple of gallons everyday so I never have to worry about stressing the system. I'm not a fan of water changes over 10% unless it's a dire emergency. I think normal water changes cause far more problems then temps do...
zemuron114
In Memoriam
Keeping it hot is not what i would want to do though. Most of the Fairy wrasses in the industry are collected in cooler temps. Long term they can't be kept in higher temps. That is my theory as to why most people have a healthy fairy wrasse one day and it is gone the next...
good idea though... i never thought of it that way.
good idea though... i never thought of it that way.
Peter Eichler
New member
However, back when lower temps were quite common people had even more issues keeping fairy wrasses alive than they do now. I think they simply don't ship well and have a harder time with the acclimation process in general than other fish. There are other families of wrasses that are routinely collected in warmer water and they have even worse survival rates. Lastly, I don't know where you're getting that most of them in the industry are from cooler/deeper waters. A far as I know most of them are from shallower waters with only a few species coming rom deeper waters that would be cooler.
If it's worth anything I've got a handful of different wrasse and they are all thriving well is 80 temps. I've had 4 for over 2 years, 1 for about 6 months and a couple for a couple of months but they don't count since they haven't been in the tank long enough. If a fish lasts 6 months in a tank generally speaking it will make it long term. I think the large majority of fish that expire do so under 6 months so until that point I don't consider it successful.
Carlo
PS running tanks hotter on purpose in the summer seems to "contradict" the advertisement (chillers/coolers) we see/read and goes against "conventional wisdom" but once you stop and think about it, you find it makes a lot of sense and solves the problem.
Carlo
PS running tanks hotter on purpose in the summer seems to "contradict" the advertisement (chillers/coolers) we see/read and goes against "conventional wisdom" but once you stop and think about it, you find it makes a lot of sense and solves the problem.
Peter Eichler
New member
He's refering mostly to parasites. A scenario like yours in one of the few times I would actually suggest a UV sterlizer.
tonyf
New member
This is a great thread ... with qualifications. I believe that it is dangerous to lessen the importance of the common wisdom in respect the parameters / metrics of our captive environments. What is perpetrated in the thread is undeniable, but at the same time a disservice to the lesser experienced aquarist. Just as we are now finding that our kids are at an educational disadvantage through the destruction of 'old school' education systems, so inexperienced aquarists will find themselves at a great disadvantage in getting to a point where they can enjoy their displays. My view is that learning the 'common wisdom' first will engender a more disciplined approach to the husbandry of our captive environments and therefore greater opportunity for success. Once the aquarist has become educated and experienced then loosen the reigns a bit and explore the tolerances of the systems.
Tone
Tone
oysterxfast5
New member
Now on the temp argument I haven't check my temp in over eight months, I got the heater set with a thermometer at about 80.5 and every thing has been fine since Knock on wood. It only varies maybe 1 degrees or so. I am sure I will get someone on here telling me that I should be doing it differently, but I see it as it has been fine almost a year i am not changing it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10588509#post10588509 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
oops just got corrected on another misconception --thanks peter--
Feeding clams cyclopeeze is not recommended due to the size of it--one should stick to phyo.
Also lighting is not as great a concern with adult clams as the young since they can rely on established filter feeding more then the young
you have to love this thread
Tridacnid clams rely on photosynthesis (both young and old) not filter feeding. only Gigas has been shown to increase its filter feeding capacity with age, and even at that not by much. clams have the ability to uptake nutrients right through there flesh to feed there zoox, no need to filter particulate when the raw nutrients are easily available. will they filter? sure. do they rely on it? not in the least.
on the same topic
clams under 3" (or 4" or what ever you might read) can not sustain themselves through photosynthesis alone because there mantles aren't developed enough to house enough zoox to feed them, and or there mantles aren't large enough to house enough zoox to support them. false
within a few days of a clam going through it veliger larval stage there mantles are fully developed and full of zoox. the size of there mantles stays the same proportionately to the size of the clam through out its life. these tiny clam are completely capable of sustaining themselves through photosynthesis alone.
one more
squamosa, derasa and gigas "prefer" the sand. false
all the tridacna clams are most commonly found up on the reef. the only tridacnid clams that are commonly found in the sand are Hippopus species. some tridacna clams can be found on the sand but only in very sheltered areas where the sand doesnt move.
Peter Eichler
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10590996#post10590996 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tonyf
This is a great thread ... with qualifications. I believe that it is dangerous to lessen the importance of the common wisdom in respect the parameters / metrics of our captive environments. What is perpetrated in the thread is undeniable, but at the same time a disservice to the lesser experienced aquarist. Just as we are now finding that our kids are at an educational disadvantage through the destruction of 'old school' education systems, so inexperienced aquarists will find themselves at a great disadvantage in getting to a point where they can enjoy their displays. My view is that learning the 'common wisdom' first will engender a more disciplined approach to the husbandry of our captive environments and therefore greater opportunity for success. Once the aquarist has become educated and experienced then loosen the reigns a bit and explore the tolerances of the systems.
Tone
What if the common wisdom is incorrect?
Aquarist007
New member
I believe this concept is called misconception
