Common Misconceptions In the Hobby

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12499580#post12499580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by icy1155
Im sorry, but there is ALOT more proof that they will survive than they will go extinct. You dont think all those times that the earth warmed up that the polar ice caps didnt melt the same as they will in the future? There was just as wide of a difference in salinity then as there will be in the future. It is a cycle, and I agree that there will probably be some extinctions and some bottlenecking, however this has been proven to have happened quite a few times over the past hundred million years, and as the climate swings the other way niches are opened back up and new corals evolve into them... its the way of the world.

I agree that pollution is a negative impact, but there are also many corals that arent anywhere near humans, and these will persist just fine into the future. All this talk about reefs being extinct due to global warming is nonsense...the earth has been much warmer than it is getting and the ice caps have been much smaller... guess what, we still have corals. The proof is in the history... this has all happened before, and they didnt go extinct... why would they go extinct this time?

A misconseption is idea that that has been proven to be wrong. The future is not here so we can not say what will happen for sure so it does not fit here.


No one can predict the future.. The earth could be totally destroyed by then .. We could get hit by a asteriod. what happened in the past does not mean it wil happen in the futrue otherwise the weatherman would get the weather right all the time.



Dave
 
Forget Britney Spears, what about rap music?

I would like to forget both things.

Let me see what Nostradamas said about corals.
I know they go extinct in a lot of people's tanks :lol:
 
Will corals survive the near future? Almost definitely. Will coral reefs survive? At the current rate it looks unlikely. Corals in some form or another have been around half a billion years. Modern corals have been around for less than half that though and modern reefs are geologically young. There have been many periods in the past where the dominant reef building organisms have gone extinct and there's no reason to believe scleractinians will escape the same fate.

It's a whole lot more complicated than just shifting the range north and going on with business. The biggest issue is suitable chemistry for fast calcification. Right now that limits them to a band slightly bigger than where they occur. As CO2 increases, lower pH and lower Ca availability shrink that band towards the equator, pushing corals south. At the same time increasing temps are pushing corals north. When the two limits meet, which could be as soon as 50 years from now on the current track, positive reef growth stops. That doesn't mean that corals will go extinct then, just that reefs will erode faster than they're built and corals will slowly peter out. Last time conditions were similar, coral reefs disappeared for 14 million years. Regardless of where your sources and sinks are they can't escape worldwide changes.

On top of that there are numerous regional anthropogenic effects that reef building corals didn't have to contend with in the past.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12500516#post12500516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Will corals survive the near future? Almost definitely. Will coral reefs survive? At the current rate it looks unlikely. Corals in some form or another have been around half a billion years. Modern corals have been around for less than half that though and modern reefs are geologically young. There have been many periods in the past where the dominant reef building organisms have gone extinct and there's no reason to believe scleractinians will escape the same fate.

It's a whole lot more complicated than just shifting the range north and going on with business. The biggest issue is suitable chemistry for fast calcification. Right now that limits them to a band slightly bigger than where they occur. As CO2 increases, lower pH and lower Ca availability shrink that band towards the equator, pushing corals south. At the same time increasing temps are pushing corals north. When the two limits meet, which could be as soon as 50 years from now on the current track, positive reef growth stops. That doesn't mean that corals will go extinct then, just that reefs will erode faster than they're built and corals will slowly peter out. Last time conditions were similar, coral reefs disappeared for 14 million years. Regardless of where your sources and sinks are they can't escape worldwide changes.

On top of that there are numerous regional anthropogenic effects that reef building corals didn't have to contend with in the past.

I know you and others were discussing this same topic in the advance forum about a months ago.
Do you have the link to that thread?

also, could you explain the difference between the reefs disappearing but the corals not--I thought the reefs were the corals or the corals were the reefs;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12499753#post12499753 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I would like to forget both things.

Let me see what Nostradamas said about corals.
I know they go extinct in a lot of people's tanks :lol:

ah hah--I wondered where or who I guy with your lenghty experience turned to for help
Nostradamas--- so that's your mentor :lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12501938#post12501938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbittner
Geez Paul. I'm really envious! Imagine, to be able to sit and chat with Nostradamas... What was that like? :D

probably 200 bucks to have his palms read and
500 bucks to gaze into the crystal ball:lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12501490#post12501490 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
could you explain the difference between the reefs disappearing but the corals not--I thought the reefs were the corals or the corals were the reefs;)

What he means is that corals will no longer be the dominant reef-building organism. One coral does not make a reef (obviously). A perfect example of what greenbean means is bivalves like oysters. At one point in history, they were THE reefbuilding organism. Oysters are still around, and there are still some oyster reefs, but when we think "reef" we think corals (more specifically, calcium carbonate corals). I believe sponges are the same case.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12502372#post12502372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
What he means is that corals will no longer be the dominant reef-building organism. One coral does not make a reef (obviously). A perfect example of what greenbean means is bivalves like oysters. At one point in history, they were THE reefbuilding organism. Oysters are still around, and there are still some oyster reefs, but when we think "reef" we think corals (more specifically, calcium carbonate corals). I believe sponges are the same case.

thanks but I am a little confused still
Greenbean said corals will be around in the future ---if not part of the reef building what will they be?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12501490#post12501490 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I know you and others were discussing this same topic in the advance forum about a months ago.
Do you have the link to that thread?

also, could you explain the difference between the reefs disappearing but the corals not--I thought the reefs were the corals or the corals were the reefs;)

In short, corals are not the only reef building organisms and there are many corals that take no part in building a reef. Some even speculate that there is very little reef building going on today and that current coral reefs are little more than a thin layer growing on ancient structures.

Also, if you do a little study on extinction events you'll see that the oceans and seas are often hit quite hard. There have been at least a few times in history where most of the reef building organisms are believed to have been wiped out by extinction events. However, nature has a way and if I had a crystal ball I wouldn't be surprised to see humans wiped out millions of years from now while new reefs are taking form with new species that don't exist today.
 
In a scenario like the one they described, corals would still build reefs, but they would not be the primary reef building organism. Who knows what would be. Who knows if they'll all just disappear or if just sponges will survive or which corals will make it... no one.
The point is it's not just global warming that is hurting the corals, its also pollution, over fishing, and a lot of other variables that you can pretty much sum up to human interaction.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12502661#post12502661 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by D to the P
In a scenario like the one they described, corals would still build reefs, but they would not be the primary reef building organism. Who knows what would be. Who knows if they'll all just disappear or if just sponges will survive or which corals will make it... no one.
The point is it's not just global warming that is hurting the corals, its also pollution, over fishing, and a lot of other variables that you can pretty much sum up to human interaction.

excellent point----being in the hobby I would be more concerned what the industry that is supporting us--is doing to the demise of our reefs

also with larger and larger public aquariums of tremendous sizes will they not become a Noah's Arc to get coral reefs past this stage in their evolution?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12504001#post12504001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
He predicted you would ask me that

hmmm when you sat down and chatted with Nostradamus---was that the time you finished off the decor of your reef(cognac and beer):lol:
 
The others summed it up pretty well. Basically a reef is just a hard, shallow geologic structure, not necessarily built by coral or even anything living. In the past the major tropical reef builders have cyanobacteria, an extinct type of sponge, a type of calcifying sponge that was thought to be extinct until recently, an extinct order of corals, another extinct order of corals, an extinct type of bivalve, and most recently (since around the time of dinosaurs) it has been modern scleractinians. Notice that most of the former reef builders are now extinct and they almost all went directly from being the dominant organisms to being extinct overnight, geologically speaking.

Only about 10% of corals actually build reefs, so the end of reefs doesn't mean the end of corals or even the end of the species that build reefs.

To understand what's happening you need to think of coral reef formation as two competing processes. You have calcification from corals, algae, sponges, mollusks, etc. which is positive growth. You also have chemical, mechanical, and biological erosion, which is negative growth. When you add them together you get net growth. When net growth is positive you get reef building. When net growth is negative, you get no reef-building or the decline of existing reefs (aka a "give-up" state).

As the chemistry of the oceans changes, calcification becomes less energetically favorable so calcification (+) slows and chemical erosion (-) speeds up. More frequent bleaching also increases the energetic demands on the corals and slows calcification more, as well as reducing reproduction. Eventually, negative growth dominates and you enter a give-up state. At that point, individual corals will still grow, but when they die recruitment of new corals to take their place is low and overall the reef is eroding faster than the corals are calcifying. Reefs and the corals on them will persist for a while after that, but won't be spreading and as the corals die off they will be replaced by different organism (probably algae). If current trends continue, as soon as 50 years from now there could be no places on the planet that have suitable conditions for positive net growth.
 
also with larger and larger public aquariums of tremendous sizes will they not become a Noah's Arc to get coral reefs past this stage in their evolution?
No. You have to have somewhere to put the corals back once you've saved them and there's a very real possibility that there won't be any available and we don't have the capacity to wait a few million years until things improve.

Another huge problem is the lack of diversity. We would have to preserve the key species to be able to rebuild a functional community from the ground up. Currently we don't know which species those are and we only have success keeping a very small part of the diversity of reefs; not enough to build a stable, functioning community. Also, in order for reintroductions to be successful you have to preserve genetic diversity, something that is seriously lacking in nearly all captive breeding of reef animals.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12504306#post12504306 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
also with larger and larger public aquariums of tremendous sizes will they not become a Noah's Arc to get coral reefs past this stage in their evolution?


In my experience, the public aquariums are not all that successful at keeping these organisms. The tanks tend to get reseeded every couple of years because of pests, water conditions, etc.

There are a couple of counterexamples, (Waikiki, Atlantis MW, etc), but the vast majority of aquarium staff I've dealt with are stuck 20 years back with the thought that corals are almost impossible to keep long term, and should just be replaced as they die.

If it comes to it, I have much more faith in the hobbyist than I do in large institutions.
 
I agree. I've known some other marine biologist, some of which wanted to intern, or were interning at a national aquarium, and a couple of them couldn't tell you the difference between carbon and crushed coral. In short, Marine Biologist does not = Ability to care for marine life.
There are just a few of us that are the exceptions:D
 
How true this is. And yet I want to get a minor in biology. I've got the advantage of already knowing how to somewhat take care of a reef aquarium. And I'm actually having my friend take care of mine because she's majoring in marine biology and wants to learn about ecosystems.
 
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