Complete DIY Custom 144x15x15
- Thread starter calvin415
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kcress
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jma1978 has it. All wire has a voltage rating though often it's not printed on the insulation. You really don't want to use low voltage in high voltage apps. Fluorescent lighting can have pretty high inductive spike and will work the insulation.
You can not tell looking but the low voltage insulation can have different quality materials and can allow more voids , etc.
When you buy UL rated wire the wire will have UL printed on it, and the gauge, and the voltage. You should probably use 600V wire. You would probably be okay with 300V wire too, but 600V is far more nick resistant.
You'll find that it doesn't mean much price-wise but could make all the difference safety wise.
Here's the least expensive I've seen:
http://www.bulkwire.com/product.asp?ProdID=7603&CtgID=6578
You can not tell looking but the low voltage insulation can have different quality materials and can allow more voids , etc.
When you buy UL rated wire the wire will have UL printed on it, and the gauge, and the voltage. You should probably use 600V wire. You would probably be okay with 300V wire too, but 600V is far more nick resistant.
You'll find that it doesn't mean much price-wise but could make all the difference safety wise.
Here's the least expensive I've seen:
http://www.bulkwire.com/product.asp?ProdID=7603&CtgID=6578
if your worried about the flow being to much look into the flow accelerators rather then actual penductors. they have a wider flow patteren then the penductors which are more of a tight high velocity stream.
remember you will get 3 to 4x the flow from either so take your 3600gph dart and devide by 4 and you get 900. now x3 for the eductor and your up to 2700gph. thats ALOT of flow for such a tight space.
but if you just do 8 outlets your 450 gph. and thats not enough.
I would say work the system to have 6 outlets(one at each end and two on each leg in the middle, or whatever) all with flow accelerators, and put a valve on each leg of the loop(under the tank) so you can adjust the flow as needed. Its a dart so throttling it back is not a bad thing.
then if when everything grows out and you need more flow you can just upgrade the impeller to a super dart
remember you will get 3 to 4x the flow from either so take your 3600gph dart and devide by 4 and you get 900. now x3 for the eductor and your up to 2700gph. thats ALOT of flow for such a tight space.
but if you just do 8 outlets your 450 gph. and thats not enough.
I would say work the system to have 6 outlets(one at each end and two on each leg in the middle, or whatever) all with flow accelerators, and put a valve on each leg of the loop(under the tank) so you can adjust the flow as needed. Its a dart so throttling it back is not a bad thing.
then if when everything grows out and you need more flow you can just upgrade the impeller to a super dart
calvin415
New member
Thanks for the link, but that's stranded... Looks like they only have 300V in a solid core...
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13723603#post13723603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnderG60
if your worried about the flow being to much look into the flow accelerators rather then actual penductors. they have a wider flow patteren then the penductors which are more of a tight high velocity stream.
remember you will get 3 to 4x the flow from either so take your 3600gph dart and devide by 4 and you get 900. now x3 for the eductor and your up to 2700gph. thats ALOT of flow for such a tight space.
but if you just do 8 outlets your 450 gph. and thats not enough.
I would say work the system to have 6 outlets(one at each end and two on each leg in the middle, or whatever) all with flow accelerators, and put a valve on each leg of the loop(under the tank) so you can adjust the flow as needed. Its a dart so throttling it back is not a bad thing.
then if when everything grows out and you need more flow you can just upgrade the impeller to a super dart
450gph isn't that bad... It's a lot more than a MaxiJet 1200. I already have valves on each of the returns so I can throttle back if needed, but it really sounds like I'm not going to be able to think through this one, instead I'll have to just experiment.
therealbobbyt
New member
Cal - I agree. You have such a unique setup that I think it would be difficult to determine your flow in the empirical sense...
Besides, all great DIYers thrive on successful experimentation!
Besides, all great DIYers thrive on successful experimentation!
lakee911
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13724317#post13724317 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by calvin415
Thanks for the link, but that's stranded... Looks like they only have 300V in a solid core...
Why does it need to be solid-core? Use stranded wire and tin the ends with a soldering iron and solder. Presto, solid wire.
You might be able to use a thicker (lower gage number) wire too. If you're over building everything else, why not that too?
therealbobbyt
New member
When electricity flows through a wire, it mostly flows on the surface of the wire, not through the middle. This effect is more pronounced on high frequency AC than it is on DC or low frequency AC. This means that a "wire" of a given size that made up of many smaller strands can carry more power than a solid wire - simply because the stranded wire has more surface area. This is one reason why battery cables in your car and welding cables are made up of many very fine strands of smaller wire - it allows them to safely carry more power with less of that power being dissipated as heat. However, this "skin" effect is not as pronounced in a typical 12V DC automotive application, and the wire and cable used there is stranded for flexibility reasons.
credit: http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/WireCapacityChart.htm
credit: http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/WireCapacityChart.htm
melev
Well-known member
Theoretically, you can divide the total GPH by the number of outlets, but reality is different. Math gets tricky when figuring flow vs friction. Pete (psteeleb) can help you with this, as I suggested before.
Looking at a Dart pump that moves 3600gph at 0' head, what will it be after several feet of horizontal plumbing, numerous fittings, hose barb connections, lesser diameter vinyl tubing, bulkheads and finally locline, the number you thought it would be is definitely going to be less. We do have a head-loss calculator on RC which may help some.
Looking at a Dart pump that moves 3600gph at 0' head, what will it be after several feet of horizontal plumbing, numerous fittings, hose barb connections, lesser diameter vinyl tubing, bulkheads and finally locline, the number you thought it would be is definitely going to be less. We do have a head-loss calculator on RC which may help some.
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calvin415
New member
Thanks. Guess I'll just have to blow more money.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13724633#post13724633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lakee911
Why does it need to be solid-core? Use stranded wire and tin the ends with a soldering iron and solder. Presto, solid wire.
You might be able to use a thicker (lower gage number) wire too. If you're over building everything else, why not that too?
Because when trying to push wires into endcaps, you need a solid wire else it just bends as you push. Been there tried that and it sucks.
Thanks, but I still have to use solid to wire it.
Oh and I'm sure I've got lots of headloss... I'll just have to try lots of different ways and see what works best. Just might have to wait until after Christmas.
Thanks.
actually the numbers are so complex and annoying that its pretty much pointless to bother trying to figure it out on systems like aquariums. And when dealing with mulipliers like eductors there is no certainty in it anyway. Simply saying you will get X gph per outlet plus or minus 10% will get you as close as you will need.
and remember your tank is not a nano here man. One outlet with 450 gph every 3 feet is not alot of flow at all.
I would highly recommend just putting eductors on and working your rock around them. you can always throttle the pump back if there is to much flow, but its a major PINA to try and add stuff after the fact.
But either way yes absolutly play with the options and see what works for you. We can blab all day long about things, but untill you actually do them and see its all speculation.
therealbobbyt
New member
Always plan for more! You know the DIY mantra. I agree with the folks talking about always being able to scale it back. Why get the standard model when you know you're gonna eventually want the z06....
tgunn
Active member
For solid core wire, give DigiKey a try. Search for "Hookup Wire" at www.digikey.com (or go here ). They carry it in every imaginable color and rating you can think of.
I just got a big spool of the white solid core 18ga wire for my T5s when I hooked them up.
As for the penductors/eductors on the closed loop, you might want to verify whether the Dart can handle those as they typically require a pressure rated pump, which the Dart is not. Ultimately penductors and eductors aren't really giving you "free" flow since you need a pressure pump to run them (which uses more power than a flow pump like a Dart).
Looking great! Can't wait to see it all up and running.
I just got a big spool of the white solid core 18ga wire for my T5s when I hooked them up.
As for the penductors/eductors on the closed loop, you might want to verify whether the Dart can handle those as they typically require a pressure rated pump, which the Dart is not. Ultimately penductors and eductors aren't really giving you "free" flow since you need a pressure pump to run them (which uses more power than a flow pump like a Dart).
Looking great! Can't wait to see it all up and running.
calvin415
New member
Thanks I appreciate the link but their prices are a bit steep... $26 for 100' for 18ga solid core, almost double McMasters. Good call on the penductors, I forgot about the pressure issue. Looks like I'll be trying out lots of loclines. If anyone knows of a cheaper source than Marine Depot, please let me know.
Good call on the penductors, I forgot about the pressure issue. Looks like I'll be trying out lots of loclines. If anyone knows of a cheaper source than Marine Depot, please let me know.
tgunn
Active member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13733464#post13733464 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by calvin415
Thanks I appreciate the link but their prices are a bit steep... $26 for 100' for 18ga solid core, almost double McMasters.
I only wish shipping to Canada was cheaper or I'm sure I'd spend a load of cash at McMasters.
It really depends what kind of flow you're going for. I originally ran a dart on my 140 when I ran a closed loop. Running the dart through six 1" outlets was too dispersed for my liking -- you could hardly feel the flow about a foot away from the outlet. The flow with 1" outlets was very dispersed so it fell off quickly.
However with your tank's dimensions I'm sure it'll work a lot different in your setup.
Tyler
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