Cone vs Regular

[gcarroll]

So your saying that these biologists, scientists,involved in the testing, did not ,could not ,don't know how to adjust skimmers ? sort of taking the "high" road isn't it if the results are not to one's liking ?

I'm saying it takes time to learn the sweet spot of each skimmer.

Are you saying that the biologist/scientist are better reef keepers than the better hobbyist in our community? Their education definitely helps when it comes to conducting experiments however the tuning of a skimmer is a huge variable.

After pulling my hair out trying to help a 10+ year hobbies tune a skimmer. It has reinforced that this variable is much wider than it seems on its surface.

 

[ericarenee]

Well how do you explain the tests done a few years by marine biologists and scientists in a controlled environment , comparing several column and cone skimmers and the results showed the column skimmers outperformed the cones by quite a margin ? ... by the way doc's and several other organic waste's were measured and calculated carefully to as to avoid "human error" .

There is just no way to clearly adjust each skimmer to its optimum efficient settings and Guarantee that one is not adjusted better then the other..
A Skimmer that pulls the stuff from your tank and keeps and works is good.

I say the this one is better then that one Theory is just all in the mind of the user scientist Marine Biologist..

Then each skimmer acts differently on each body of water .. So again . HUMAN ERROR AND I Will add from post above Lack of knowledge on a particular skimmer . And what each person things is how the skimmer should be set varies as well..
There are just way too many Variables to get a accurate conclusion...
I do not agree any certain design is better then others. i do know the skimmer must be balanced and adjusted right

 

[ksed]

Klaus has adjusted skimmers all his life. He has all the time he wants, but clearly that doesn't count.
I am sure the skimmers that were included in the study had extensive testing before publishing the results.

 

[bernie lyons]

variables

variables

There is just no way to clearly adjust each skimmer to its optimum efficient settings and Guarantee that one is not adjusted better then the other..
A Skimmer that pulls the stuff from your tank and keeps and works is good.

I say the this one is better then that one Theory is just all in the mind of the user scientist Marine Biologist..

Then each skimmer acts differently on each body of water .. So again . HUMAN ERROR AND I Will add from post above Lack of knowledge on a particular skimmer . And what each person things is how the skimmer should be set varies as well..
There are just way too many Variables to get a accurate conclusion...
I do not agree any certain design is better then others. i do know the skimmer must be balanced and adjusted right

Obviously, then what's the point of investing big dollars into high end skimmers then ? I mean that $200.00 skimmer sitting in your closet probably never had a chance to perform "optimally" because of "human error" ,right ?

 

[slief]

I'm not going to get into this debate anymore than I already have but I will point this out.

I find it kind of funny that some of you would assert that it would be impossible to quantify which design is better. Do you really think that an engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs can't properly setup a skimmer to it's optimum performance and can't quantify which actually performs better in a controlled environment? REALLY?? That is in fact what some of you are insinuating. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, I'm not sure.

This isn't rocket science. If you manufacturer skimmers, you know how to best set your skimmers up. To test them, you place them in a tub with high DOC content water (as shown in the photos above) and you time how long it takes to remove the DOC's to a target level. There are plenty of ways to verify the content of the water before and after skimming. Then you repeat the process with another skimmer design.

So while many hobbyest's have plenty of experience with skimmer tuning, I would expect that many well recognized skimmer manufacturers are even more capable and fine tuning a skimmer to the best of it's ability. Especially in a controlled enviornment used for testing purposes. For the life of me, I don't understand why any of us hobbyists would question a well respected engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs when he states that he feels one body design is better than the other let alone question the ability to properly tune a skimmer for the given enviornment.

So with that said, I will sit back and watch the debate continue and hope I still have hair left after scratching my head continually! :lolspin:

 

[bernie lyons]

agree

agree

I'm not going to get into this debate anymore than I already have but I will point this out.

I find it kind of funny that some of you would assert that it would be impossible to quantify which design is better. Do you really think that an engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs can't properly setup a skimmer to it's optimum performance and can't quantify which actually performs better in a controlled enviornemet? REALLY?? That is in fact what I am reading between the lines.

This isn't rocket science. If you manufacturer skimmers, you know how to best set your skimmers up. To test them, you place them in a tub with high DOC content water (as shown in the photos above) and you time how long it takes to remove the DOC's to a target level. There are plenty of ways to verify the content of the water before and after skimming. Then you repeat the process with another skimmer design.

So while many hobbyest's have plenty of experience with skimmer tuning, I would expect that many well recognized skimmer manufacturers are even more capable and fine tuning a skimmer to the best of it's ability. Especially in a controlled enviornment used for testing purposes. For the life of me, I don't understand why any of us hobbyists would question a well respected engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs when he states that he feels one body design is better than the other let alone question the ability to properly tune a skimmer for the given enviornment.

So with that said, I will sit back and watch the debate continue and hope I still have hair left after scratching my head continually! :lolspin:

Well said Slief ! This debate has gone to the point of ridiculousness !!!

 

[ericarenee]

I'm not going to get into this debate anymore than I already have but I will point this out.

I find it kind of funny that some of you would assert that it would be impossible to quantify which design is better. Do you really think that an engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs can't properly setup a skimmer to it's optimum performance and can't quantify which actually performs better in a controlled environment? REALLY?? That is in fact what some of you are insinuating. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, I'm not sure.

This isn't rocket science. If you manufacturer skimmers, you know how to best set your skimmers up. To test them, you place them in a tub with high DOC content water (as shown in the photos above) and you time how long it takes to remove the DOC's to a target level. There are plenty of ways to verify the content of the water before and after skimming. Then you repeat the process with another skimmer design.

So while many hobbyest's have plenty of experience with skimmer tuning, I would expect that many well recognized skimmer manufacturers are even more capable and fine tuning a skimmer to the best of it's ability. Especially in a controlled enviornment used for testing purposes. For the life of me, I don't understand why any of us hobbyists would question a well respected engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs when he states that he feels one body design is better than the other let alone question the ability to properly tune a skimmer for the given enviornment.

So with that said, I will sit back and watch the debate continue and hope I still have hair left after scratching my head continually! :lolspin:

This i agree with totally....
i was just Saying that a Study by a non bias person could not adjust two totally different designed to there optimal settings and be able to say what is better..
To have two skimmer manufactures each adjust there own skimmer in the same body of water at the same time and then a 3 rd group or person rate there efficiency would be a accurate test .
So for someone that uses x skimmer then switches to y skimmer and says x was better is not very scientific or exact. Like many things when you like something you are more bias .. That being said I still think cone vs regular is a MUTE POINT..

 

[ericarenee]

Obviously, then what's the point of investing big dollars into high end skimmers then ? I mean that $200.00 skimmer sitting in your closet probably never had a chance to perform "optimally" because of "human error" ,right ?

Obviously a 500.00 skimmer is going to outperform as a 200.00 skimmer.But a NOT So balanced 500.00 skimmer my not do as well or be as stable as a well built 150.00 skimmer.
i do not get your point

 

[bernie lyons]

point

point

Obviously a 500.00 skimmer is going to outperform as a 200.00 skimmer.But a NOT So balanced 500.00 skimmer my not do as well or be as stable as a well built 150.00 skimmer.
i do not get your point

If you do not get my point ? , Doesn't surprise me based on your debate about "controlled" testing for skimmers as being useless , well I can't help you...

 

[ericarenee]

If you do not get my point ? , Doesn't surprise me based on your debate about "controlled" testing for skimmers as being useless , well I can't help you...

two different skimmers can not be tested by One person who is Bias to one or the other.

as far as to compare something that cost 200.00 to a more advanced model that cost 500.00 For obvious reasons there is no doubt in most cases which will out perform the other ..:facepalm:


When i said they can not be tested i was in fact wrong . I think it could be done. if it were one body of water. with the skimmers both in there Each tuned by the Designer of there own skimmer and a 3 rd party recording results...
but to say a skimmer x manufacturer testing skimmer x y and z would not be fair. or say scientist a setting up skimmer design 1 2 and 3.. He/ she has to have some bias opinion already.. Its just not in human nature to not be bias to something we have used and accustom to...

actually as well that one body of water would have to be equally split between the skimmers . tested before and after x amount of time in a controlled environment...

 

[bernie lyons]

testing

testing

two different skimmers can not be tested by One person who is Bias to one or the other.

as far as to compare something that cost 200.00 to a more advanced model that cost 500.00 For obvious reasons there is no doubt in most cases which will out perform the other ..:facepalm:


When i said they can not be tested i was in fact wrong . I think it could be done. if it were one body of water. with the skimmers both in there Each tuned by the Designer of there own skimmer and a 3 rd party recording results...
but to say a skimmer x manufacturer testing skimmer x y and z would not be fair. or say scientist a setting up skimmer design 1 2 and 3.. He/ she has to have some bias opinion already.. Its just not in human nature to not be bias to something we have used and accustom to...

actually as well that one body of water would have to be equally split between the skimmers . tested before and after x amount of time in a controlled environment...

Why would biologist or scientist be any different than you and me ? I 've met and know a few of them who are hobbyist at heart and just like the rest of us , they too like to try as many pieces of equipment and experiment to tuning things to a tee .

 

[ericarenee]

Why would biologist or scientist be any different than you and me ? I 've met and know a few of them who are hobbyist at heart and just like the rest of us , they too like to try as many pieces of equipment and experiment to tuning things to a tee .

Just like you and me they have tried Different brands and have there own idea on how it should be tuned.. I mean what is the exact color and foam thickness that is best.This will often very depending on the user.

The whole idea if Independent testing is to take the user and Bias opinions out.And because of how skimmers adjust and tune I know i could not make a unbiased opinion .
This is why you let each Designer tune there skimmer . then let the scientist test the results .

We can disagree with each other all night if you like but i am Convinced you are Convinced... The world is doomed lol..... ok maybe its not that dramatic. but we have :hammer: this subject to death i think its :blown:

 

[bayoupr]

Why would biologist or scientist be any different than you and me ? I 've met and know a few of them who are hobbyist at heart and just like the rest of us , they too like to try as many pieces of equipment and experiment to tuning things to a tee .

I'm guilty, that's me with skimmers.

 

[bernie lyons]

equipment

equipment

I'm guilty, that's me with skimmers.

Me too! I've owned too many high end skimmers to count. I love tuning things and get feedback from the manufacturer as to where they believe to be the best starting point on their products.Calcium reactors too...

 

[CHSUB]

I'm not going to get into this debate anymore than I already have but I will point this out.

I find it kind of funny that some of you would assert that it would be impossible to quantify which design is better. Do you really think that an engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs can't properly setup a skimmer to it's optimum performance and can't quantify which actually performs better in a controlled environment? REALLY?? That is in fact what some of you are insinuating. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, I'm not sure.

This isn't rocket science. If you manufacturer skimmers, you know how to best set your skimmers up. To test them, you place them in a tub with high DOC content water (as shown in the photos above) and you time how long it takes to remove the DOC's to a target level. There are plenty of ways to verify the content of the water before and after skimming. Then you repeat the process with another skimmer design.

So while many hobbyest's have plenty of experience with skimmer tuning, I would expect that many well recognized skimmer manufacturers are even more capable and fine tuning a skimmer to the best of it's ability. Especially in a controlled enviornment used for testing purposes. For the life of me, I don't understand why any of us hobbyists would question a well respected engineer and manufacturer of both skimmer designs when he states that he feels one body design is better than the other let alone question the ability to properly tune a skimmer for the given enviornment.

So with that said, I will sit back and watch the debate continue and hope I still have hair left after scratching my head continually! :lolspin:

i will disagree, skimmer companies are trying to sell skimmers, the R&D is minimal. they are giving their best guess at what works best; but what sells best and makes the most money is the goal. the most important thing to them is convincing us to buy their "great" product. this is not Apple or IBM, it's a couple of guys with a couple of bucks!

 

[slief]

i will disagree, skimmer companies are trying to sell skimmers, the R&D is minimal. they are giving their best guess at what works best; but what sells best and makes the most money is the goal. the most important thing to them is convincing us to buy their "great" product. this is not Apple or IBM, it's a couple of guys with a couple of bucks!

A blanket statement like that is pretty short sighted IMO.. Not all skimmer companies are alike and some (not many though) actually put a substantial amount of R & D into their designs and know exactly what will work best for a given load and don't need to guess. Some actually go as far as to design their own pumps, volutes and or impellers to insure their skimmers work as good as they possibly can and are as balanced as possible. But you are correct in that skimmer companies do want you to buy their skimmers. Otherwise, why would they be in business?? Surely it couldn't possibly be to sell tires.. :thumbsup:

 

[CHSUB]

A blanket statement like that is pretty short sighted IMO.. Not all skimmer companies are alike and some (not many though) actually put a substantial amount of R & D into their designs and know exactly what will work best for a given load and don't need to guess. Some actually go as far as to design their own pumps, volutes and or impellers to insure their skimmers work as good as they possibly can and are as balanced as possible. But you are correct in that skimmer companies do want you to buy their skimmers. Otherwise, why would they be in business?? Surely it couldn't possibly be to sell tires.. :thumbsup:

not saying they are crooks, but it is what it is. a very small business, or maybe i'm wrong and Klaus just bought Lebron James's house in Miami for $14 million.

 

[slief]

not saying they are crooks, but it is what it is. a very small business, or maybe i'm wrong and Klaus just bought Lebron James's house in Miami for $14 million.

Without a doubt, skimmers are a small market although for European companies like RE, it's a much larger market in Europe (for their products) compared to the US simply due to lower costs, less competition and domestic build. Still, there is a decent market out here for products like those from RE or ATB or even Deltec for that matter.

By the way, you have it wrong about Klaus.. He's a Laker fan and was looking at one of Kobe's properties in LA. :thumbsup:

 

[Primetime33]

I'm saying it takes time to learn the sweet spot of each skimmer.

Are you saying that the biologist/scientist are better reef keepers than the better hobbyist in our community? Their education definitely helps when it comes to conducting experiments however the tuning of a skimmer is a huge variable.

After pulling my hair out trying to help a 10+ year hobbies tune a skimmer. It has reinforced that this variable is much wider than it seems on its surface.

What hair?!!!
By the way, the skimmer is working great !!
Thanx Greg [emoji106][emoji106]

 

[Klaus Jansen]

not saying they are crooks, but it is what it is. a very small business, or maybe i'm wrong and Klaus just bought Lebron James's house in Miami for $14 million.

:beer: i missing this in the Sunshinestate ... http://www.beer-faq.com/what-is-kolschbier/

best regards ... Klaus