Controller: Reef Angel or Neptune Apex AquaController (or other...)

The Ardunio platform is fantastic; I've built tons of neat stuff with 'em, including the random number generator which "fakes" being a wallbox for my '57 Seeburg Jukebox to facilitate random play... And it's a nice upgrade from tha ATMEL that was in there before. ;)

It's also usually a little light on horsepower, and depending on the exact model can be light on onboard memory. I agree with you on those Willie; I forgot that's what was in there... If it's an upper end Ardunio (Like the Due, which is an ARM core), they can be nice. I'm figuring one out to duplicate a very broken, very unavailable '50s jukebox analog "computer" replacement...

And seriously EAB? You make it an Apple vs. PC discussion with controllers? I'd love to finish that argument, but I've got to tend to the 1 desktop, 3 laptops, 1 server, 2 phones, 2 tablets, and four Android-embedded devices I've got that aren't functioning around here (All for two adults)... 'Cause god knows they aren't working... :headwally:
 
The Ardunio platform is fantastic; I've built tons of neat stuff with 'em, including the random number generator which "fakes" being a wallbox for my '57 Seeburg Jukebox to facilitate random play... And it's a nice upgrade from tha ATMEL that was in there before. ;)

It's also usually a little light on horsepower, and depending on the exact model can be light on onboard memory. I agree with you on those Willie; I forgot that's what was in there... If it's an upper end Ardunio (Like the Due, which is an ARM core), they can be nice. I'm figuring one out to duplicate a very broken, very unavailable '50s jukebox analog "computer" replacement...

And seriously EAB? You make it an Apple vs. PC discussion with controllers? I'd love to finish that argument, but I've got to tend to the 1 desktop, 3 laptops, 1 server, 2 phones, 2 tablets, and four Android-embedded devices I've got that aren't functioning around here (All for two adults)... 'Cause god knows they aren't working... :headwally:

Windows 8 is terrible and the people who made it should be locked in a room and forced to watch people with no touch screens try to use it efficiently. It is so bad that I want to switch my work computers to Macs.

I was only saying that I like the Neptune ecosystem and for me it just works (similar to the iOS ecosystem).
 
Good to see others are sticking up for Reef Angel and the Arduino platform, I appreciate der_wille_zur_macht's views and opinions but a number of points made about the RA are simply incorrect.
 
I'm not going to get too deep in this 1. I'm not too terribly tech savvy and have no personal experience in programming etc.. 2. I'm not familiar with the RA.
I do however have an Apex and love it. There are a few small issues such as updating the firmware..... I cannot figure it out and it scares me because my ancient computer has a mind of its own sometimes, and the instructions are pretty clear about what needs to be done or you risk fatally crashing the unit.so I am still running whichever version came with the unit five years ago.
And the programming language can prove challenging, however there is an awesome "unofficial" guide that is great for some of the issues not covered in the user manual. I have had zero issues with customer service, and the Reefcentral community is a great source for information as well. I have used the Neptune forum many times and it has always been a success.
My unit has worked flawlessly since I set it up. It also controls my DIY LEDs and ramps them up and down. I also run a diy top-off system using a simple float switch and the Neptune's I/O breakout box which was $16.00 when i got it, the toms aqua lifter pump was $20.00 and the float was about $5.00 you can also set up redundancies with another float for safety. You can set a delay for certain items when there Is a power failure so you don't overflow skimmers, run power-heads dry etc.The unit has almost unlimited expandability. The UI for keeping track of parameters and events from a computer is nice as well as the iPhone app which works great.
I'm sure my post is one sided but I only have one side to comment on, so please don't think I'm an RA hater.
Hope this helps.



Sent from the 4.
 
I don't own or use any commercially available controller system, but I've had some exposure to most of them over the years. Take my feedback with a grain of salt, as it comes from my heavily-DIY biased perspective and I'm likely to be harsh about things that most people might not care about. After all, one of the reasons why I DIY'd my stuff is that I don't really care for any of the currently available products. As far as I am concerned they all have some pretty serious faults.

Reef Angel: New, small customer base, all your eggs are in one basket (Roberto IS the manufacturer, support team, marketer, vendor, developer, etc.) Yes there is a community there, but the community isn't obligated to help if you have a disaster and there's a certain risk level for a one-person company to fail if that person goes on vacation, gets hit by a bus, gets a job offer they can't refuse, etc. Plus, this hardware is inherently based on a very, very simple foundation. If you just want the basics, that's probably OK, but there's a very real limit to the future growth of the system. Arduino is an amazing platform but compared to the technology that's emerged in the last few years it's kind of a Flinstone-era relic. Also, the hardware design is hard for me to follow sometimes (i.e. certain features are included in the head unit that I would have expected in a separate module to keep the cost of the head unit lower, etc). For me, the only advantage of the RA is access to the firmware, which for MOST people isn't really an advantage. With closed source controllers, you're basically writing or configuring pseudo code that the actual firmware interprets, which gives the manufacturer the opportunity to catch or prevent serious mistakes because they don't let you into the actual guts. The danger with open firmware is that YOU, potentially, are modifying the actual firmware, there's no "filter" (unless you use one of the "wizards" or code examples the community has developed, in which case you're trusting someone with no accountability to control your reef). And when I say serious mistakes, I'm not talking "oops I left the lights on all night" but rather "oops the buffer for the wifi module I just added overflowed because I used the wrong variable when I called it, and now the controller crashed, and every piece of equipment on my tank is in an unknown state."

DA ReefKeeper: In many ways, a closed-source equivalent of Reef Angel, but with a more well established vendor. Same inherent hardware limitations (wimpy processor). Some poor hardware design (IMHO) in some of the components. Compared to the RA, it's less flexible (though this only applies if you're willing to go rewrite the RA's firmware yourself) but coming from a more established entity.

Neptune Apex: Also a more established entity. Doesn't have the same core limitations as the other two (it's built on a much nicer and more powerful processor, which theoretically leaves more hope in expandability over the coming years) but there are, IMHO, some pretty serious faults in some of their hardware designs.

There are definitely others out there but IMHO most of them are either not well established in the US, have weird feature sets, or are grossly overpriced.

The one common thread here is that (IMHO) all three of these major players have odd/poor hardware design in one or more components of the system. When you're designing a hunk of embedded electronics that's going to get thrown into all kinds of different environments by hobbyists who might not be electronics experts, IMHO, you'd want to design to a VERY robust and fault-tolerant level, and I don't really think any of these three vendors have done a super good job of that. With all of these controllers, there are stories here and there of people having sensors reporting strange values (poor circuit design i.e. the amp for the probe isn't well enough isolated), relays not properly turning on or off (poor parts spec and/or incorrect design for a given type of load), interference being caused by other common reef electronics (an MH ballast that causes a controller to flip out - I mean, cummon - if you're designing a controller for a reef tank it should be able to sit next to a major brand MH ballast without the end user having to put a faraday cage around it). For MOST people these issues probably won't surface, but IMHO they point to these devices, for the most part, not having highly rigorous designs (which would of course drive the price up).

I'd be willing to bet that the landscape for reef controllers is going to change pretty significantly in the next 2 or 3 years. It seems pretty clear that there's going to be a move away from 8 bit processors at least for the more serious contenders, and I'm hoping and praying that they ALL figure out their hardware issues by brute force of responding to customer issues over time (or a new player comes into the market who doesn't make these basic errors). If you're going to dump a ton of money into a specific brand, make sure you understand the future and potential for that brand and you're comfortable buying in to it.

This is spot on Nate!
 
The Ardunio platform is fantastic; I've built tons of neat stuff with 'em,

Me too. It IS fantastic as a platform for hobbyist involvement in embedded electronics. I've built dozens of things with Arduino including several reef controllers (two of which have been published on these forums as open-source projects: The Typhon and Hydra). It's an awesome platform, but it's also inherently limited. FWIW the RA is built around 8 bit AVRs: the 328p or 2560. These are single threaded 8 bit processors, which to me, is a huge limitation when you're trying to build a controller that has a sophisticated UI, web server, abstraction between the core hardware and what the user is able to tinker with, etc. - all the things people are trying to do today with reef controllers. Basically, I feel that this hardware approach is really excellent if you can control scope but, IMHO, it's limited. I think the Arduino approach is really amazing as a way to support DIY tinkerers who are willing and able to absorb everything that comes with this approach, but (again, personally) I don't feel it translates appropriately to the consumer goods space without a design that forces some level of abstraction in the hardware with respect to the processor, which the RA doesn't. Again, I stress that this is my own opinion, and other people my have other criteria. And it probably seems hypocritical for me to say this, as my own aquarium is basically run by Arduino-derived controllers, but I went in to that with eyes wide open (and, started the process many years ago, before the current crop of cheap 32-bit hardware existed).

but a number of points made about the RA are simply incorrect.

I'm not here to bash, and if I'm the one making incorrect statements I'd hope you'll correct them as I'd like to be sure I'm not spreading misinformation. The RA is a good controller in many ways and clearly it can run a reef tank, but if I, personally, were in the position of not being DIY-focused and having to buy in to a commercial controller framework, it would not be my first choice. To each his own though, if we all thought the same about these things the world would be a boring place. :)
 
So wille if YOU become inclined to build a controller from the ground up that addresses all these issues.....how would you begin?
 
I love this community :) but I still haven't made up my mind..

Can anyone tell me what I would have to spend on an Apex (or do i need Lite/JR?) for the following? Just curious what the "real" price difference is, as some units require more modules than the other, but I'm somewhat in the dark as to what exactly is required to make a unit operational for my requirements...

I have to say that I am leaning closer towards the Apex for the simple fact that there's a solid company behind the device and it allows an Ethernet connection out-of-box (also, hard-wired OR wireless instead of just wireless, right?)
I like wireless, but I wouldn't put critical equipment on it...


1. Controller (Apex: ??? - RA: $220)
2. ability to put controller online (Apex: out of box -- RA: $109 for wireless addition)
3. Temperature Probes (I assume both come with these out of box, right?)
4. PH Monitoring (seems to be out of box on both units as well, right?)
5. Auto Top Off (unsure about Apex -- RA: water level expansion $69 & ato pump $69)
 
So wille if YOU become inclined to build a controller from the ground up that addresses all these issues.....how would you begin?

In a practical sense, I wouldn't do silly things like route signal traces right next to mains power traces, or connect processor pins directly to I/O ports external to the device, or forget to isolate amplifiers, or use relays that aren't able to reliably turn common equipment on and off, and so on.

In a philosophical sense, I'd divide and conquer in terms of processing power and open-ness.
 
I'm not here to bash, and if I'm the one making incorrect statements I'd hope you'll correct them as I'd like to be sure I'm not spreading misinformation. The RA is a good controller in many ways and clearly it can run a reef tank, but if I, personally, were in the position of not being DIY-focused and having to buy in to a commercial controller framework, it would not be my first choice. To each his own though, if we all thought the same about these things the world would be a boring place. :)

The few incorrect statements I was referring to are one, the wizard available to write code is actually part of the Reef Angel Software developed by Roberto, not some unknown person on a forum. Second , there are actually two ways to customize the controller, writing settings that are stored within the code itself or writing settings that are stored within the internal memory. Both effective but very different.

Definitively appreciate the diversity of opinions here on RC particularly the URS :D
 
Controller

Controller

In a practical sense, I wouldn't do silly things like route signal traces right next to mains power traces, or connect processor pins directly to I/O ports external to the device, or forget to isolate amplifiers, or use relays that aren't able to reliably turn common equipment on and off, and so on.

In a philosophical sense, I'd divide and conquer in terms of processing power and open-ness.

Congradulations Willi!!! WE hereby commission you to build us the ULTIMATE fail-safe and user friendly controller in the world!! :thumbsup: We have faith in you Willi!! ....just thinking of that sunrise/set and lunar cycle in real time....:inlove:
 
The ra has me very interested; the price for my needs seems like a no brained considering how easy it is to upgrade. I don't have any immediate needs for any tech fiddling, rather rather basic reef keeping monitoring. Here a list of most the needs I can think of:

Ph
Temp- ehiem heater backup controller, turn on fan, shut down halides, shut down pump
Timer- vho, halide, fuge
ATO
Low water shut off
Wet sensor (overflow in cabinet-shut down pump)
2nd Ph

The controller needs to be Mac compatible.

How many of these things can the basic ra do? How easily? As you can see I have no need for clouds casting led shadow, you know what is said about man aping nature? What I need are basic controlls and perhaps a $100 assesory allowing me to check on things the small handful of times I'm away from the tank for a stretch.
 
The ra has me very interested; the price for my needs seems like a no brained considering how easy it is to upgrade. I don't have any immediate needs for any tech fiddling, rather rather basic reef keeping monitoring. Here a list of most the needs I can think of:

Ph
Temp- ehiem heater backup controller, turn on fan, shut down halides, shut down pump
Timer- vho, halide, fuge
ATO
Low water shut off
Wet sensor (overflow in cabinet-shut down pump)
2nd Ph

The controller needs to be Mac compatible.

How many of these things can the basic ra do? How easily? As you can see I have no need for clouds casting led shadow, you know what is said about man aping nature? What I need are basic controlls and perhaps a $100 assesory allowing me to check on things the small handful of times I'm away from the tank for a stretch.
 
looks like you're looking for about the same thing that I am.. i'm still somewhat confused on what it can and can't do out of box too!


also..does anyone know if the android apps lets you control anything? or does it just view.
 
looks like you're looking for about the same thing that I am.. i'm still somewhat confused on what it can and can't do out of box too!


also..does anyone know if the android apps lets you control anything? or does it just view.
 
So from what I understand for RA:


Reef Angel Controller: $219
- Monitors Temperature (1 probe included, 3 possible)
- Monitors PH (1 probe included, 1 possible)
- 2 FLoat Switches (included)
- relay box with 8 controllable outlets included

Wireless Expansion: $109
You will need the wireless expansion to connect it to the net

With the above I do believe you get about the same functionality as the Apex system (Apex: $499 - RA $328) But in both cases I do believe you must purchase additional modules for the other requirements..

like I said.. I'm still somewhat lost myself as to the total requirement and price on each system..
 
so.. I would really like some assistance on the matter of PRICE on Apex & RA. I hear everyone say that "RA" is "half the price of apex!" or at least 2/3rds the price..

Now I'm not here to say that's not true, as I still haven't made up my mind yet or fully grasp both units potential/capabilities, but the more I look into the units, the more I'm starting to think that the RA is really not that much cheaper...

RA:
219 (but really you'd want the 269 version if you're going to expand it much...)
109 for the ability to get it on the internet

Now you're at $378 and get:
1 PH probe & monitor
1 temp probe & monitor (ability for 3 probes)
8 controlled outlets
2 float switches
ability to use unit online


Apex: $499, for all the above so about $125 more expensive than the RA.

However.. If you want to start monitor ORP

RA: $119 expansion - Total: $500
Apex: included - $54 probe - Total: $555

Now.... if you want to add, let's say Salinity..

RA: $119 for relay expansion, $149 for salinity expansion - Total: $780
Apex: $85 for PM2 (also adds temperature + i/o expansion) - $139 for conductivity probe - Total: $779

add a 2nd PH monitor/probe to the mix:
RA: 109 - Total: $890
Apex: included, $45 for probe - Total: 824

At this point the apex is cheaper AND will have given you much more capabilities because the PM2 module gives you more than just the 1 capability..


Am I reasoning this properly? If I'm right though, the big reasons for choosing one over the other are:

RA: freedom to configure/code, smaller first investment...
Apex: Bigger company backing it up, solidly built, larger first investment..
 
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Do you know what the temp controlls on each? Can they both first turn on fans, next cut the halides, then lastly cut the main pump? How easy is it to switch the time on timers with each? Can they both do different things monitoring the float switches ie top off, shut down main pump. Honestly if I can get a ph monitor, a ranco unit, an ATO, and a small pile of timers for around $225 that alone seems the no brainer. Unless something has changed I never saw the need to watch orp, and the only reason I see one would need to continually monitor salinity would be if the device had a fail safe to cut the top off pump; which could be a nice safety net. A wet floor sensor would get my money first as that would catch my sump overflowing and the ppt would lower but about 10% and probably wouldn't cause much harm.
 
yes, on the apex you can code to do all that fun stuff. I have a water sensor attached to my apex to detect water and send me an email along with shut off the main pump so it stops sending water up to the tank.
 
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