Coral die off... help me get my head around this one

[toddmau5]

So for the last...oh... 6 or 7 months, I have been having random corals die off. usually only 1 at a time. sometimes 2. it started with 2 montis. They were growing like weeds then poof. RTN... then a few acros here a and there. Everything else in the tank will be doing extremely well. Even the piece in question will be doing very very well up until D day. I have chased pests, I've chased chemistry. Everytime I see a piece showing the slightest signs of tissue necrosis I pull it and inspect it very closely for any pests. I couldn't ever see any pests on the corals. I would give them a quick dip and put them into QT. I did have a small flatworm issue back in jan-feb. They didnt appear to be AEFW. they were small brownish worms that would mostly stay on the glass. However after loosing a couple pieces I decided screw the worms, and went full on attack at them with flatworm exit and lots of water changes. Again I still havent seen any pests on said corals after removing and inspecting or dipping. So I moved on to chemistry. This tank DRINKS alk. I was having trouble staying on top of it and with my PH in question, I started using KALK as my top off water. I was going through a 35g trash can of kalk about every 2 weeks and my alk was still dropping. Calcium and magnesium would hold steady. Nitrates, phosphates, ammonia everything is in check and in the green. Calcium holds steady at 420-480 magnesium 1250-1400. I was aiming to hold my alk at 8dkh. so after I started loosing my meteor shower cyphastrea (i have a thread in the LPS section about that one) I started manually dosing alk and measuring 2-3 times a day and checking my calcium and mag to make sure everything was in check. Its taking a lot of additive but the alk is staying about 8dkh. Today for the first time I noticed my Deep water acro was going, and it seems to be going fast. The meteor shower is almost completely gone. I dont know if i should try and cut it and salvage the little bit thats left or just pray. Then I also noticed my Bling Bling Cyphastrea that was doing very well is almost gone as well, seemingly our of now where. everything else seems to be holding steady or doing very well except for a couple of pieces. My giant plate of miami hurricanes chalice had started receding a few months back and is continuing its shrinkage. I also have a crazy rainbow monit that seems to be growing and then dying at the same time. For every bit of new growth outward, it seems to be dying from the middle outwards. I also noticed today a few "burnt" looking tips on one of my acros and my birds of paradise. Here is an album of the pieces currently on their way out, some that have been long gone and some that are doing extremely well...
http://imgur.com/a/l2NPr

salinity 1.026
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 0ppm
Phosphates - undetectable
Calcium 480ppm
Magnesium 1420ppm
Alk 8.2dkh

and triton results

 

[JPMagyar]

Forgive my bluntness. Your post strikes me as somewhat "Newbie" like.

You talk about Nitrites and your Calcium levels are high and you are looking at data that is overall meaningless because we have no basis to analyze most of the nutrient levels you tested and nutrient levels in an aquarium change hourly let alone daily, weekly, or monthly.

Sadly I feel your tank requires a "Reset".

There is a simple solution that I wrote about in my 2011 article in Advanced Aquarist . . . copy someone that is successful. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Just follow the success of someone else and you are virtually guaranteed success. I copied Chris Jessen and this is what I got . . .

 

[toddmau5]

Essentially the tank was a full reset back on October. There was no reinvention or attempting to go my own way with anything. I copy what seems to work with the majority and people have success with. Even copying another tank exactly, you will never match the parameters, you will never match the nutrient uptake and export, it just wont happen. So as things start getting it of the normal I adjust to try and bring them back in the normal. As far as parameters the only time I really mentioned nitrates and calcium was in an over all since. Seems to be any where on this forum anytime you ask a question the first response is always "what are your parameters?" So to get ahead of the crowd I decided to post my full water test readings, forgive me if posting water measurements are newbie.

 

[rwb500]

a tank full of unhealthy corals will not be burning through alk like that. have you tried separate test kits? Also are you doing regular water changes, skimming, and GFO? have you tried feeding more? obviously with zero nitrates you have a lot of wiggle room in the higher nutrient direction. how much algae growth do you get on the glass?

and yes i agree you spent the vast majority of your post talking about pests and water quality values which do not help much with fixing things.

also i agree when you have no idea what is wrong it is best to keep it simple and copy what works. focus more on the basics and less on sending water samples to germany.

 

[toddmau5]

Agreed and they are not all unhealthy corals. If you click the link to the gallery I included the ones that are giving me issues and a few of the ones that are growing like weeds. For the most part I'd say about 90% of the corals are doing very well, hence the alk usage. I do regular water changes and I do run gfo and a skimmer. I'd say I probably need to scrub the glass once a day and it develops a decent film on the glass. I think I probably over feed since the tang and rabbit fish are pigs. Sorry if the vast majority of my post was spent talking about pests and water parameters, but aside from those two subjects what else is there that causes tissue necrosis?? And yes I am focusing on keeping it simple and what works. I.e. staying on top of water changes and making sure the parameters stay in check. I guess I have been wrong these last few years in the thought that maintaining normal parameters was good reef keeping. I'm not jumping to any rash conclusions I'm simply just asking what could be causing this issue. I would like to think I am focusing on the basics in my daily and weekly routine with the tank. As far as the water sample goes I won the Triton test in a give away. By no means did I think it was a solution to any issues.

 

[airtime23]

Forgive my bluntness. Your post strikes me as somewhat "Newbie" like.

You talk about Nitrites and your Calcium levels are high and you are looking at data that is overall meaningless because we have no basis to analyze most of the nutrient levels you tested and nutrient levels in an aquarium change hourly let alone daily, weekly, or monthly.

Sadly I feel your tank requires a "Reset".

There is a simple solution that I wrote about in my 2011 article in Advanced Aquarist . . . copy someone that is successful. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Just follow the success of someone else and you are virtually guaranteed success. I copied Chris Jessen and this is what I got . . .

Can you please direct me to a link for your article? Thanks.

 

[IrishTang]

"and yes i agree you spent the vast majority of your post talking about pests and water quality values which do not help much with fixing things."

That statement makes no sense. Posting his water parameters and any evidence of pests would be the FIRST thing you would look for when diagnosing coral death. The beginning of your post you ask him if he's tried seperate test kits, what does that matter if his wayer qualities doesnt help to fix things?

To Mr. I wrote an article about how I copied someone elses ideas and it worked for me. Maybe he is a "newbie". Youre pointing that out DOES NOTHING TO HELP. As a supposed expert the community expects better from you sir.

 

[ca1ore]

I'm afraid almost everyone gets RTN/STN at some point. IME the former is invariably fatal to the entire colony, the latter can stop on its own or the piece fragged. I realized many years ago that keeping SPS is much easier once you have your alkalinity and calcium under control. We can debate the absolute levels, I suppose, but not the importance of consistent levels. My own experience is that Kalk in the top off water can be very useful but is unlikely to be adequate once the tank becomes host to a lot of calcium consumers. I'd strongly suggest that some kind of automated 2-part capability, or even a calcium reactor, is called for here.

 

[CuzzA]

I know Joe can be very helpful once he latches on to a case, and perhaps he was in a bad mood, (I've been there, done that). But I do agree the response wasn't all that helpful and I don't think a reset is necessary. Usually that recommendation comes when things are just too far gone or you simply can't beat a pest like bryopsis or dinoflagellates.

I agree with Simon that you should get dosing pumps and stop manually dosing.

Todd, you mentioned you don't believe it's a pest. Which sounds right as a pest like AEFW would likely show damage before a coral was completely gone. I'm not sure what dip you're using but you want to be using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer. And make absolutely certain no residual product gets back to your display. http://t.homedepot.com/p/Bayer-Adva...-Insect-Killer-for-Soil-Turf-700270/100658964

Necrosis is the result of a bacterial infection caused by stress on the coral. I keep posting this and eventually I believe it's going to become common practice. Aside from the trigger causing the stress, first lets talk about the cure for necrosis. Sounds like you already have a coral QT, so the hard part is done. If you wish to fully hault necrosis the coral will need a 6 day treatment of ampicillin. Obviously ampicillin is a antibiotic which kills any and all bacteria, whether good or bad, so an in tank treatment is impossible. Read the study I have linked below for the correct procedure on how to perform the treatment.

Now, on to the cause... Stress. Stress on a coral will weaken the corals natural defense to the bacteria and ciliates. We need to find out what is stressing and weakening your corals. The most common thing is large swings in parameters. Specifically, alkalinity. Which is where Simon may be on to something. Perhaps the manual dosing is just too much at once and it's burning tips and hurting the corals. Like I said I would start with adding dosing pumps and spread the dose out several times per day. A dosing pump is going to deliver the product much slower than you could insuring that it mixes better with the tank water and that there are no pockets of heavily saturated Alk and Ca water making its way right on to a colony.

A final thought is artificial sea water. We live right here on the coast of Florida so this isn't for everyone, but after doing a lot of research I have decided I will be switching to collected filtered natural sea water. Most of these salt mixes aren't anywhere close to NSW parameters both with major elements and minor ones. In fact if you look at all of the brands with the exception of Tropic Marin Pro (which is the most expensive ), the alkalinity mixes up extremely high, sometimes double that of NSW. And while some may mix up better for alk, their other parameters are way off. Just performing a simple water change could be enough to shock more sensitive corals and weakens them to allow the bacterial infection to set it. I don't know why they they make a product that is so far away from what most hobbyist want to keep their parameters at. Every water change creates an imbalance. If you're interested in hearing how I plan on going about collecting water let me know and I'll be glad to share. Here's an article by Dr. Shimek discussing the toxicity of ASW. Meanwhile, every post/report I've read about using NSW was positive and users saw improved health in their tank. Of course, I'm not suggesting this is your problem, but if you want to keep your alk at 8 and your water change water is mixing up at 12, that can't be good for obvious reasons.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/

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[CuzzA]

Also, if I'm understating your triton test results, you have elevated Copper? I would run some polyfilter to bring that down and maybe do a double check throughout the system as to why it is high. (Something Leaching?)

 

[toddmau5]

So many points to reply to.
I have come to the realization that stn/rtn are a fact of life in the reef hobby. This may sound weird but I promise twice a year around the same time, a couple people in the local club start posting about acro death, there almost seems to be a season for it. I've accepted across/Millie's etc are difficult and will do what they want. What was throwing me off is the montis and mainly the LPS. Its so weird seeing a colony show new growth, and then literally the next day all that new growth is gone. And then the colony begins to die off after that. Cyphastrea is known to he a pretty hardy coral, so to see that die off before the more sensitive stuff, really threw me off.

I have had a calcium reactor set up for a little while now but the pH monitor died on me so I have been waiting to get that replaced. I was planning on getting everything to complete the set up this week until an expensive emergency came up (excuses, excuses) so my only option is to manually dose a little bit longer until the funds are available once again.

As far as dips go. Every new piece I get in goes through Bayer and spends a few weeks in at, and then gets a finally Bayer dip before going into the display. As far as rescue corals, if I have to pull them from the display they get a dip of coral Rx and then go into the QT for a few weeks.
Yes the triton showed elevated signed of copper, but from following a thread that randy Holmes Farley was heavily involved in, this number can be taken very seriously as the reading was at the limits of the test equipment, and is at such a low level it shouldn't be an issue. When I was going to order the final touches for the calcium reactor I was going to order the detox to flush out any metals in the system.
My biggest fear of turning the car reactor on is pH drop. My pH is on the low end of the spectrum as is and that was the second reason behind using kalk as a top off, increased alk/ca and pH increase by using available co2. I still can not figure out why my pH seems to be consumed at the same rate as the alk. But its been holding steady with the dosing.
Don't worry, the top off did not get dumped into the tank it went through a drip line and would turn on throughout the day and not top off all at once

 

[CuzzA]

So, twice a year our local water municipalities switch from chloramine to chlorine to disinfect the water supply system. Perhaps it's just too much for our RO/DI systems to handle. They do post notices when they do this.

Second, if I'm understanding you correctly, you were using a ca rx and then stopped due to the ph monitor failing and started manually dosing. That change could most certainly be enough to have thrown your system off and started the domino effect. Remember when something like burnt tips or necrosis happens it's usually from what happend a week or two in the past.

Finally, ph. Ph is a direct result of alkalinity so your observations are correct. As alkalinity is reduced so is the tanks ph. However, most often low ph is the result of excessive co2 within your home. Especially with newer homes that are so air tight. You can crack a window and that will help a lot, but not very safe all the time if it's a single story window. (No need to make it easy on burglars). Or install a quite and efficient exhaust fan like the ones that are commonly found in bathrooms. Perhaps put it in a closet near the tank and run it 24/7. This will yank the excessive co2 from within your home and allow fresh oxygen in as I doubt your house is completely air tight. Basically just a simple air exchanger.

 

[CoralReefBoffin]

First and foremost, some of those early responses are ridiculous and portray the "newbie" status far moreso than the OP. Shameful ...

Todd. I would highly recommend, especially if tissue necrosis is a seasonal event within your reef clubs area, to advance/replace your RO/DI filter system and get an analysis of your tap water. Its imperative youdo this as a first means of occlusion, at the very least ... Often times the source water quality/anti-bacterial methods changes with the seasons ... This is often to blame for seasonal bouts of necrosis/bacterial infections, FYI

Change out and/or upgrade to high quality filters (highly suggest minimum 1micron sediment > 5micron carbon > .5 or 1 micron carbon) and then do a series of 50% water changes, using a high quality salt mix thats mixed/established as close to the tanks parameters as possible ... If your current salt mix doesnt prove to have these values the. Dont nust switch mixes completely right now, rather mix the two together at a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio > 1/2 to 1/2 > finally a 2/3 to 1/3 opposite every other water change until you're using 100% the new mix ... Once you have achieved this, and if things are still giving you issues, post again and shoot me a PM notifying me. As far as the corals in serious decline, frag as far away from the necrosis as possible and do a quick series of iodine dips on them. While first getting your source water improved as much as possible, filters are very inexpensive, comparatively. HTH and dont go making drastic changes right now, despite whata yone else has to say. Ill help you, but you need to narrow your advice implementations

 

[CoralReefBoffin]

Thats too funny, cuzza just now brought source water to the thread as I was typing about improving it as much as possible and it being a likely issue, due to some of the characteristics of Todds system issues ... Excellent point, Cuzza

 

[tkeracer619]

Who do you buy your water from?

Hershel Heights, Northwest, Seaboard, and South Central use Chloramines

Sun City and Crystal Lake use chlorine.

http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/index.aspx?NID=1338

You need a total chlorine test kit, check the RO waste water with it and see if you are getting chloramine breakthrough. The Jungle brand ammonia test strips from walmart will tell you if you are getting ammonia past your di cart. Carbon breaks the ammonia chlorine bond in chloramines and removes the chlorine. The cation di resin removes the ammonia.

 

[toddmau5]

As far as the calcium reactor goes I believe you misunderstood. I have not had the ca reactor running I was piecing it together and was about to fire it up when the pH monitor decided to stop turning on. Then I was developing some low pH issues, which seem to be in the norm but lower then I feel is safe, especially when there will be a ca reactor added in.
The pH issue has been an odd one, random Holmes Farley had me do a bunch or tests and determined that the pH probes were skewed. I've been calibrating once a month but they still keep getting out of whack and I have a hard to trusting them. I have a serious fan in the hood and a carbon scrubber on the skimmer just to try and help out all this was done months ago like Jan Feb.
As far as source water goes, I'm on some Podunk water company that I'm sure literally only services our neighborhood. I have called to ask them what they use in their water and assured me they didn't use chlormines or any such thing. They did tell me twice a year they run chlorine through the lines to flush them. That was done beginning of the year. I will look into getting a total chlorine test for the di water

 

[alan jeffery]

What type of water heater do you use?

 

[toddmau5]

Water heater? For the house? Or for the tank?

 

[alan jeffery]

Tank

 

[cnreef]

Can you please direct me to a link for your article? Thanks.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aquarium