Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank) - split

[SaraB]

+2

He does do fantastic work and such has a happy customer base and great reputation. I loved my tank!

 

[mr.wilson]

I would think that if this is the case, acrylic tanks would be failing all over the place because of the tank lighting.

I've seen outdoor acrylic tanks at public aquariums where the joint has yellowed with UV exposure, but I have not heard of any failure. I suppose one could cover the joint with a strip of UV filtering acrylic or even silicone as a low-tech alternative. Acrylic tanks have a good reputation of lasting week over 30 years even under metal halide lighting that is both hot and offers some UV, but much less than the sun.

I'll have to dig thought the acrylics thread on this. There was a fair amount of discussion on the topic of annealing joints. material manufacturers almost always recommend it but no one really ever does it. At least not to my knowledge.

This has been my experience as well. Annealing is considered to be very important with curved panels and large tanks in particular by engineers. Acrylic tank manufacturers boast that they anneal all tanks and even individual panels as part of their sales pitch. It's a big selling point when they are slighting a smaller manufacturer who does not have a large oven if any at all. I often hear "we anneal all of our tanks", but whenever I ask about the process I frequently hear "oh we don't have time/space/equipment to anneal all tanks", or "we only anneal big tanks or curved panels". The truth usually comes out after you've sent them your money and received the tank.

In the case of Peter's tank, I would be surprised if it was actually annealed, as the L shape and large dimensions (16' L x 8' W x 2.5' H) make it hard to fit in an oven.

If you do the math, it's pretty clear they can't tie up an oven for days with every batch of small tanks or one big tank... but from a technical standpoint, it should be done.

Seriously though, what is going to happen to it?

From an engineering standpoint, Peter and his insurance company will not allow for a repaired aquarium. It's no different than writing off a wrecked car. There will be a cost associated with the removal of the aquarium. We are hoping that the manufacturer of the new tank will absorb this cost in the delivery and installation cost (if a tank is built on site). If the tank was cut into two pieces, it will fit out the door.

 

[mr.wilson]

...you don't flame polish or use a machine polisher that induces excessive heat but instead wet sand and then final polish with machine using proper technique.

Do I think that annealing would have saved this tank? Possibly.

Yes, very good point. Professional acrylic tank builders would never flame polish a seam. It looks sexy, but it messes with the ionic composition of the acrylic, and as you mentioned, would lead to crazing, not a seam failure.

The annealing question is more with regard to a replacement tank and the ability to build an acrylic tank on site, than what caused the previous/current tank to fail. We are considering glass, but I don't like using it for tanks over 600 gallons.

I have seen a few seam failures with acrylic tanks over the years; some of which, had visually perfect seams. The seam in question in Peter's tank had visible flaws (air bubbles/void space). As I mentioned before, a 24' long L shaped tank needs special engineering due to unique stress conditions (twisting, load, ability to build square). It is likely that the tank was not built square and true so when levelled, it was stressed... but I'm no engineer. The long and the short of it is the failure was due to manufacturers defect. The was plumb and level and never had heat stress or external or internal force on it.

 

[tidus10]

Im sorry to side bar.. but 2 questions...

you mentioned you were coming back from an 8 ball tourney? Im guessing you play professionally?

secondly.. can you please post pics of said bently

lastly... Its really awesome what you have all done. I know from reading, this is not a one man job, it took a select ground level team and then an army to make it really come into its own, you have really done what soo many people here want to do and to share it, is something amazing. Thank you for that.

The hardship you are going through is truly something that a lot of us can not even understand, while I have had a tank seam rip on me, it was only 60 gallons, not 1300 gallons.. and i had no fish in it yet.. but what youve gone through is really terrible. Money aside, time aside, you had fish in there for long enough to build that relationship and get to enjoy the quirks that some fish show over time.

Coming into this hobby from the reptile trade, ive seen some amazing animals and done some great things with great people, and its people like you, who are soo lucky to have been able to just go downstairs and see this creation, and living art that inspire others to do more and learn more to just get a slice of that art in their house. Honestly what it seems like, is you and your team are far from shy and are willing and happy to be apart of this group.. its really awesome.

Once again im sorry for the loss but thank you for sharing. Best wishes on the rebuild, cant wait to see it.

 

[jbvdhp]

I don't believe it's on RC but it's out there just search for it with his name. It's the biggest private aquarium in the U.S. He also builds the best quality slimmers for monster tanks 400g and up like Peters.

Is bill the gent with a 20k gallon private aquarium, where he built everything himself? I mean everything! If it is, his tank had an accident too?! WTH. There's another thread where a woman had a side of her 400 gallon crack too. What's going on with all these large tanks?!

 

[mr.wilson]

IMO if your "insured", the insurance company works for you. You are paying for their service. If they will not cover another tank in the home, the first thing that needs to be done is find another insurance company that will be able to take care of your specific situation and give you the coverage you need and are paying good money for.

I'm trying to stay out of the insurance issue, but I will say this. It is their mandator to fight every claim, and they only insure what is stated on the policy.

Peter was under the impression that the aquarium and its contents were insured. There is no reason why he would exclude them from the rest of his belongings. The aquarium and contents are in fact insured, but only from theft, vandalism and external forces (fire, structural damage to the home etc.).

Think of it like this; you have a TV in your home. One day the TV stops working because the manufacturer made a faulty solder on a circuit board. Your insurance will not replace the TV because of manufacturer's defect. In another scenario, your team loses a game and your friend throws the remote control through the TV. Your friend may have to answer some questions to the insurance company, but they will pay out your claim for a replacement TV. The same is true of fire or if the ceiling collapses on the TV as external forces. Now if your TV has a faulty soldering job and it starts a fire, the insurance company would cover the fire damage, but not the TV. The insurance company would then sue the TV manufacturer to recoup their losses, due to manufacturer's defect.

Flooding is another area that insurers MAY not cover. If a quick snow melt had flooded Peter's fish room, thus crashing his system with electrical shorts etc., he may not be covered. It really depends on flood plane locations and the source of the water damage. A faulty dishwasher hose would be covered, but a faulty seam is not. Like I said, I'd rather not comment on the nature of insurance.

Peter had a visit from the insurance policy underwriter when the tank was completed almost 5 years ago. The underwriter requested several water damage mitigation devices but signed off on the aquarium itself.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

This has been my experience as well. Annealing is considered to be very important with curved panels and large tanks in particular by engineers. Acrylic tank manufacturers boast that they anneal all tanks and even individual panels as part of their sales pitch. It's a big selling point when they are slighting a smaller manufacturer who does not have a large oven if any at all. I often hear "we anneal all of our tanks", but whenever I ask about the process I frequently hear "oh we don't have time/space/equipment to anneal all tanks", or "we only anneal big tanks or curved panels". The truth usually comes out after you've sent them your money and received the tank.

Well we all know they don't anneal all tanks or else you know they would be boasting about it on the show. They routinely build tanks as fast as possible then get them installed right away.

They have to put panels in the oven to create curved shapes, but then they weld all the parts together with 40 using jigs and tape (shown regularly) but never have I seen them put a finished tank or even a portion of a finished tank in the oven.

In fact, I asked Brett point blank (in person) about their process of building and then immediately installing tanks, with respect to the curing time for joints vs panels as I previously outlined. He assured me that when using WO40 this was not an issue (it definitely is with a solvent joint), that once the joint has hardened you can put water in it right away. I still have yet to verify that this is true but my gut tells me it is not. Still I don't think this was the issue with Peter's tank, solvent or 40, it had plenty of curing time. The only wild card outside of the manufacturing process might be transportation and installation: how much time did the tank have from the moment it was complete (last joint set) at ATM until it got put on a truck, how was it handled as it was being moved into place (crane, carts, hand-lifted, etc)...all of these points of movement can put a lot of stress on a tank if proper support isn't provided, if the joint is not fully cured, and this tends to get magnified when the tank is very large and heavy.

The tank in a local restaurant that I mentioned earlier had an area on the bottom joint on one side, near the front, that was so horrible looking that I called the manufacturer and sent them pictures. They said it "didn't look like that when it left" but also admitted that the joint was made when it was 100+ F that day and that the solvent "dries up quickly" in that heat...and that it might have opened up on the truck when being delivered. Essentially they admitted that they didn't let the joint fully cure before shipping it, or that when it was boxed up it wasn't supported properly and the uncured joint allowed air to entrain into the joint during shipping as it cured.

There are all kinds of reasons why this stuff happens. Understanding these and then doing things the "right way" to minimize the possibilities of these makes for a business model that doesn't always work. Because we live in a "right now" society, and very few people understand why "yes I can do that right now" isn't always the right answer. And that's not pointing the finger at any end consumer, this has a lot more to do with the guy in the middle somewhere promising to meet a deadline or meet a customer's demand. I know people that have turned down work because the customer or middleman demanded a tight timeline which would require them to do it the wrong way.

From an engineering standpoint, Peter and his insurance company will not allow for a repaired aquarium. It's no different than writing off a wrecked car. There will be a cost associated with the removal of the aquarium. We are hoping that the manufacturer of the new tank will absorb this cost in the delivery and installation cost (if a tank is built on site). If the tank was cut into two pieces, it will fit out the door.

It would be a lot of work...if I only had time, money and no responsibilities, I would probably buy the scrap tank and take a shot at repairing it!!

I have seen a few seam failures with acrylic tanks over the years; some of which, had visually perfect seams. The seam in question in Peter's tank had visible flaws (air bubbles/void space). As I mentioned before, a 24' long L shaped tank needs special engineering due to unique stress conditions (twisting, load, ability to build square). It is likely that the tank was not built square and true so when levelled, it was stressed... but I'm no engineer. The long and the short of it is the failure was due to manufacturers defect. The was plumb and level and never had heat stress or external or internal force on it.

Sometimes a tank can have all panels square and true, then after bonding everything together it twists a little bit. Strange, but it happens. It has to do with the panels themselves and the nature of the material. So there is a "settling" factor, and this is why when you buy a used tank, you usually want the stand that came with it. A tank can settle into the stand that it's on and be fine for decades. But if you take a used tank and put it on a different stand, you can cause everything that is already settled in to re-stress and this is when you usually have seam failures.

Is bill the gent with a 20k gallon private aquarium, where he built everything himself? I mean everything! If it is, his tank had an accident too?! WTH. There's another thread where a woman had a side of her 400 gallon crack too. What's going on with all these large tanks?!

Yeah, that's the tank. He lost a 6" pipe in the middle of the night and it nearly drained the whole tank. Google it.

 

[mr.wilson]

Lots of pics of crazing on Google Images "crazing acrylics cell cast".

Dave.M

As Floyd & Dave have mentioned, they are tiny hair-like crack lines within the panel. They are a sign of a stressed (bowed) often undersized panel. This is where a manufacturer often undersizes a panel to save a few bucks in material cost. Proper engineering will call for 3/4" acrylic and they will use 1/2" instead. It not only puts stress on the panel resulting in bowing and crazing, it also adds stress to the seam.

In the case of Peter's tank, the panel that failed was not bowing; however, thicker acrylic for the 8' panel that failed (1.5" instead of 1", as used on the 16' panel) would have created a 33% larger bonding area and subsequent greater seam strength. You never want cost to jeopardize structural integrity and tank longevity. In the case of many acrylic tanks with crazing, the tank maintains it's structural integrity, but dramatically reduces the life of the tank due to the appearance.

 

[jbvdhp]

As Floyd & Dave have mentioned, they are tiny hair-like crack lines within the panel. They are a sign of a stressed (bowed) often undersized panel. This is where a manufacturer often undersizes a panel to save a few bucks in material cost. Proper engineering will call for 3/4" acrylic and they will use 1/2" instead. It not only puts stress on the panel resulting in bowing and crazing, it also adds stress to the seam.



In the case of Peter's tank, the panel that failed was not bowing; however, thicker acrylic for the 8' panel that failed (1.5" instead of 1", as used on the 16' panel) would have created a 33% larger bonding area and subsequent greater seam strength. You never want cost to jeopardize structural integrity and tank longevity. In the case of many acrylic tanks with crazing, the tank maintains it's structural integrity, but dramatically reduces the life of the tank due to the appearance.

Wow that's nuts.

Peters is 1.5" thick? And failed? Bills tank, iirc, is 2" thick. Yeesh.

 

[mr.wilson]

Yeah, that's the tank. He lost a 6" pipe in the middle of the night and it nearly drained the whole tank. Google it.

No matter how well you plan and build a reef aquarium, one seemingly little thing can be a weak link that causes catastrophic failure. It is virtually impossible to foresee all possible disasters in advance. Some fail safes and precautions can actually add possible peril. Evolving and moving on are the key.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Wow that's nuts.

Peters is 1.5" thick? And failed? Bills tank, iirc, is 2" thick. Yeesh.

The joint that failed was 1"

Bill's tank failed at a pipe, not a tank joint.

 

[dave.m]

I would like to suggest that when you start your new build (no "ifs" about it) you create a new build thread rather than drag this one out. This one is already pretty unwieldy as it is without doubling its size with a new tank.

Dave.M

 

[Bilk]

Hi Peter. This is really a heartbreaking event for the entire community as a system such as yours was an inspiration, not only in terms of size, but also in the exhibited achievement of success and dedication an undertaking such as yours, entailed.

It is evident in your reporting of this unfortunate event that your sadness is not for the financial loss, which is obviously significant, but for the loss of the livestock you and your dedicated team had so much success in raising and propagating. As Mr. Wilson stated, this sort of failure event is unforeseeable and not user error. We all feel a sense of loss and hope you come back stronger and better than before!

 

[scubadan206]

I just heard about Bill's tank crash from Peter yesterday. Very sorry to hear. I know Bill is very thorough in his design and build, but often things are out of your hands.

Bill was in my local SCUBA store Saturday. so I think he's doing alright... Sounds like he's preparing for more cleaning/scraping duty.

 

[mr.wilson]

Wow that's nuts.

Peters is 1.5" thick? And failed? Bills tank, iirc, is 2" thick. Yeesh.

It's an apples and oranges comparison.

I don't recall the details, but I believe Bill's tank has no seams to fail. Concrete tanks are made by creating a silicone gasket, not a bonded right angle seam. The water pressure of the tank pushes the panel against the opening. The panels usually overlap the frame of the opening by 4" or more. Some installer use stainless steel brackets to pull the panel against the inside of the frame.

The bottom of Peter's tank is 3/4" thick. The panel that failed was 1" and the 13' panel is 1.25" thick.

The thickness really depends on water height from the bottom of the panel. Curved panels have a different standard as they are stronger and resist bowing.

 

[jbvdhp]

The joint that failed was 1"



Bill's tank failed at a pipe, not a tank joint.

Right, I was just comparing the acrylic thicknesses

It's an apples and oranges comparison.



I don't recall the details, but I believe Bill's tank has no seams to fail. Concrete tanks are made by creating a silicone gasket, not a bonded right angle seam. The water pressure of the tank pushes the panel against the opening. The panels usually overlap the frame of the opening by 4" or more. Some installer use stainless steel brackets to pull the panel against the inside of the frame.



The bottom of Peter's tank is 3/4" thick. The panel that failed was 1" and the 13' panel is 1.25" thick.



The thickness really depends on water height from the bottom of the panel. Curved panels have a different standard as they are stronger and resist bowing.

I can't imagine how he and his wife must feel.

Did you used to see the tank on a regular basis, mr wilson?

 

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Evolving and moving on is key - agreed!

Evolving and moving on is key - agreed!

Peter, the good news is the worst is over! Your tank has definitely made so
many people very proud to be in this wonderful hobby. You have helped sooo
many people that you *don;'t* know about... Visualize your NEW GOAL and
GO AFTER IT with EVEN INCREASED PASSION and BURNING DESIRE TO
MAKE IT...LIKE YOU SAID, "EVEN BETTER".... life hands you lemons...make
lemonade baby...this is your incredibly unique opportunity....GO FOR IT...
So sorry for your loss but there is not a fish on the planet that ever had a human do better for them by making them as comfortable as possible more
then you did....Your attention to detail was NOT in vain....just IMAGINE HOW
REMARKABLE AND MIND BOGGLING your NEW SET UP WILL BE. IF I WAS
A FISH..I WOULD WANT TO BUY ENTRY TICKETS!

good luck mate! The whole reef community is behind you 100%!!!!!!
If your ever up in Wasaga Beach I would be honoured if you would visit
for a cold one or coffee..., Cheers, Tim, aka : Sohal Tang. Wasaga Beach.

Haven't even met you Peter and I love you man!

 

[pyithar]

Peter, i just finished reading this thread. i'm so sorry for your loss. your tank was really amazing. i'm sure your next tank will be amazing as well. i wish you the best of luck.

pyithar

 

[overexposed]

Peter, I started reading your thread from the beginning starting around the time I began building my new tank last October. I took a brief reprieve to read Ching's thread after you insisted - it was a great read. I am still reading through your thread as time allows, but alas I have only reached page 132 of the original thread. In fact - I hadn't even realized there was a split! Until this morning, when I logged onto my local reefing forum (thefragtank.ca for SW Ontarion reefers) and saw that someone had started a thread about your tank failure. My heart goes out to you - I still haven't reached the part of your thread where the tank is full of saltwater, and then I hear this!!!! I am so so very sorry to hear about your losses. I hope your recovery goes well.

PS I was very intrigued when I saw where you are from because I was born in, and still have lots of family in Oakville.

 

[pscott99]

Take a holiday some place warm. Get rid of the cold and go scuba diving. I vote for a taller tank visible through the floor from upstairs. Go get drunk it's St Patricks day !!