Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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may i ask why a softener is needed or what it does??

in Lubbock Texas, we pull from aqua furs and the water is really hard. and 1/2 the houses use softeners and the other half doesn't.
what does it do for RO units?
(my LFS uses one)

ok let me do a long Mr. Wilson post here.

Here we go...


Hard water is usually caused by high level of calcium or magnesium. It can cause scale build up in pipes, home appliances etc. Both Calc and Mag can be removed through water purification i.e. RO and distilled. But!!! because they are expensive and water softners are not as much, softening the water is a good first line of action when treating hard water. The harder the water the faster and more damaging it will be to filters and membranes. So you will be replacing them extremely quickly. So not to get crazy scientific but a softner has a resin which look like tiny plastic beeds. This resin acts as a ion exchanger converting the calcium and magnesium to sodium and potassium, which is "softer". So for the exchange to happen the "tiny beads are soaked with sodium and potassium and when the tap water comes through, the calc and mag switch places with the sodium and potassium. Eventually the beads have lost all the sodium and potassium and are covered in calcium and magnesium. At this point the unit regenerates. Thats where the salt comes in. Softner salts are basically pure sodium and potassium. A softner will have a brine tank next to the softner. In there the "salt" will be soaked in water so it slowly dissolves. Then that solution will be sucked into the softner washing away all the calc and mag down the drain and refueling the beads with the potassium and sodium again. Cycle continues and continues.

Why is this a good thing. Well for people in my neck of the woods, you can't live without it. My shower heads will plug in days after I forget to add more salt. Washer, dishwasher and sinks will get damaged due to scale build up. Soap will not suds nicely with hard water, the soap reacts with the high calcium and you can rub your hands with soap all you like and it won't suds.

Why this helps us in the hobby? well having a softner makes your RO membrane job easier. The easier your RO job is, the easier your DI job is. The easier your DI job is, the longer you have 0 TDS water and don't need to spend money changing filters, membranes and resins.

Grains of hardness is a unit of measurement used when calculating how hard water is. It can also be compared to TDS. This information is also going back to the DI issue we talked about earlier and how long they should last. The calculations below should help you better understand why a good RO is important, because it is directly related to how long your DI will last and how dependable your final results will be, no matter what brand of DI resin you have. Hopefully my calculations are not to crazy.

G= grains of hardness
T= TDS (total dissolved solids)
X= gallon useage (how many gallons used - product water)
R= DI resin grains capacity (how much crap a DI can remove until changing)

Our formulas

G = T / 17.1 X = R / G

So for example a good RO should take Oakville water down to 4 TDS. And for example and average sized DI resin has a grains capacity of 900.

G = T / 17.1
G = 4 / 17.1
G = 0.2339

X = R / G
X = 900 / 0.2339
X = 3847.80 gallons

Now the same DI with a RO unit that produces 15 TDS as someone mentioned before.

G = T / 17.1
G = 15 / 17.1
G = 0.8772

X = R / G
X = 900 / 0.8772
X = 1025.99 gallons

You can see the difference. With a unit that has TDS creep, its even more damaging to a DI. Your better off having a cheap RO that makes less water but is consistently on the high side of TDS, roughly 10 etc. A unit that is known to creep is brutal, because you don't know what those first jolts of water are, 50 TDS, 60 TDS etc. Those jolts will really soak up the resins capability fast.

Hope this helps
 
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More for Chago09: I have seen some of this water treatment equipment needing venting to the outside. What's that about?

Thx,

Dave.M
 
More for Chago09: I have seen some of this water treatment equipment needing venting to the outside. What's that about?

Thx,

Dave.M

softners???? I'm not sure what kind of system you are referring to? I know Ozone water treatment could I guess require a vent. Usually its fairly small quantities so doesn't need a vent to the outsdie, although I assume if its a large enough scale, then yes Ozone gas would build up to dangerous levels and would need a vent.
 
Sorry, couldn't say. I know it was a water softener unit, a big white cylinder the size of a hot water heater. Whatever it was off-gassing, it needed to be vented outside.

Dave.M
 
Sorry, couldn't say. I know it was a water softener unit, a big white cylinder the size of a hot water heater. Whatever it was off-gassing, it needed to be vented outside.

Dave.M

The size of a water heater???? was this at a commercial location? I personally have only seen softners that big at St. Josephs Hospital, they had like 30 of them :eek:

Usually house hold softners are about 40" tall and a diameter of 10 - 12". Some commercial ones are larger, but usally taller and a little wider. Then next to the softner is a brine tank which vary in sizes, there basically a plastic container just to hold salt.

Was this something you saw in Ontario?
 
Ken.... don't worry I have not forgotten about you. Ken ideally you need to first find out if your area requires water softeners. I am going to bet that Orangeville does. Your only a few kms north of me and Orangeville does pull from wells so its a pretty good chance its hard. First thing you need is a water softener.

As for a RODI, how much water are you needing? how large is your tank?

O' Boy a Mr. Wilson and a Chago09 !:celeb2:

As for hard water I can say, if you see someone walking on water in Orangeville it's not a miracle ! it's just the water.

I will start with what I have setup and you can set me straight if I'm off course.. Out of the meter in to a Main line 3/4" sediment filter ( in two weeks it is gross to look at!) then in to a Autotrol 255/760 30K water softener set to 20G hardness (recently updated from a old Culligan unit that came with the house 10 years ago) then to my RO DI unit "Purely H20 Optima CA" unit that has a 10" 1 micron sediment, run in to a 10" Catalytic Carbon filter, run in to a 10" carbon block filter, then into the RO that gets 2-3 TSD out. I have also recently add on a second RO to up the capacity to 150 G/Day so that the waste water from the first RO feeds the second RO and then both output to the DI filter.

Now this is the first time I have heard the term TDS creep as one issue I have is when the unit is first turned on the TDS jump to ~120 then slowly over a minute drops to the 2-3 TDS. I have looked and asked about this with out any feed back to why or if this is normal.

The other question that arose from an earlier post of your's is "Ontario has Iron" do we need to be concerned about this ?

As for my tank size I have a 120G with a total of ~170G in the summer I need about 2.5 G/day top up compared to Peter's 2.5 G/ hour requirement LOL

BTW Peter the tank is coming along great!
 
Yes, north of ****** in Arva, but it was an old unit. Perhaps they don't make them like that anymore. But similarly, I have seen units mounted over wells that are supposed to have something to do with reducing iron content, and I am told those have to be used outdoors, as well.

Dave.M
 
O' Boy a Mr. Wilson and a Chago09 !:celeb2:

As for hard water I can say, if you see someone walking on water in Orangeville it's not a miracle ! it's just the water.

I will start with what I have setup and you can set me straight if I'm off course.. Out of the meter in to a Main line 3/4" sediment filter ( in two weeks it is gross to look at!) then in to a Autotrol 255/760 30K water softener set to 20G hardness (recently updated from a old Culligan unit that came with the house 10 years ago) then to my RO DI unit "Purely H20 Optima CA" unit that has a 10" 1 micron sediment, run in to a 10" Catalytic Carbon filter, run in to a 10" carbon block filter, then into the RO that gets 2-3 TSD out. I have also recently add on a second RO to up the capacity to 150 G/Day so that the waste water from the first RO feeds the second RO and then both output to the DI filter.

Now this is the first time I have heard the term TDS creep as one issue I have is when the unit is first turned on the TDS jump to ~120 then slowly over a minute drops to the 2-3 TDS. I have looked and asked about this with out any feed back to why or if this is normal.

The other question that arose from an earlier post of your's is "Ontario has Iron" do we need to be concerned about this ?

As for my tank size I have a 120G with a total of ~170G in the summer I need about 2.5 G/day top up compared to Peter's 2.5 G/ hour requirement LOL

BTW Peter the tank is coming along great!

A sediment filter gross to look at from city water??? wow I heard it was bad, didn't know it was that bad. In reality on city water a sediment filter shouldn't do much at all. Anyways, lets see if I can help you here. As per your softner, 20 is great as long its doing that you shouldn't have issues with hard water.

On to your RO. Are you sure its two carbons in a row then the RO??? most drinking water RO set ups will run a sediment to a carbon to the RO to a post carbon. Drinking water industry calls it a taste filter. Either way for aquarium use your set up is better, two carbons are good to protect the membranes. As per your TDS creep. Most cheap membranes will have this happen. I am not familiar with the brand of RO unit you have. In reality the brand make doesnt mean much as there are so many companies who simply buy component parts, make the RO themselves and sell them as aquarium RO systems. DIY RO is actually extremly simple, now just put a label on it and sell it.

Anyways..... one thing I noticed is your "second RO" unfortunately RO doesn't work like that. If you want to run 2 membranes there is only one way to do it. You might cut down each membranes production down slightly but together they will make more then one individually if you have enough pressure. After the filters split the line and have the water go into each membrane seperatley. Taking the drain water and simply connecting it to a second RO without a pump will not work. As a matter of fact its probably why your getting such a high TDS reading. RO needs pressure to work. Your second membrane is either wasting everything going in, or is dispensing very high TDS water until enough drain water from the previous RO has built up pressure inside. I recomend you either use a single, or split them the way I mentioned. Otherwise a booster pump is needed for the second RO.

The iron issue won't effect your aquarium or your Membrane. What it will effect is your carbon blocks. Iron will create a gelatin over the carbon block forcing water to bypass the carbon and allowing chlorine and chloramine to enter the membrane. This is damaging to the membrane and will result in high TDS.

Sorry I just re read the above and realized I ment to type it won't effect your membrane if you use GAC instead of carbon block. Carbon blocks get plugged from the iron. GAC which is 50 micron will still have gelatin issues but not nearly as fast since with GAC there is a ton of surface area and not just a block as hard as wood, with water being forced through its pores. Once the pores are blocked, as Donnie would say Foget abat it. With GAC its like a sand so theres always surface area for water to touch.
 
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Cougarman, the Goodwin mention you was replacing his DI every 600 gallons. That means that the Merlin is not running perfectly. The Merlins issue is TDS creep. No no no TDS creep isn't crust building up like salt creep, TDS creep is an up and down TDS reading from water coming out. Those of you who have a Merlin. Leave it off for a day. Then turn it on and the first drop of water I want you to test with a TDS before the DI. I promise you it will be higher. Merlins technology requires the unit to run a little first before you use the water. So if your using auto top off and the water stops for a few hours. Then all of a sudden it starts, your DI is going to get punished with high TDS. End of the day your getting 0TDS in your tank thanks to the DI, but your going through DI like nuts. A decent DI should not last 600 gallons more like 5000 gallons. Here is an article from a site on this unit.

http://www.askthewaterdoctor.com/2009/11/ge-merlin-fact-of-fiction/


Again I am not bashing this unit. It is better then a simple home unit. But it isn't the best and has lots of things that need improvement. I personally would not own one.


I don't know what to say other than my experience is quite the opposite. I've had the unit almost 3
years now I think and I've replaced the filters and membranes only once. I run a thousand gallon system, with regular large water changes and at it's worst I had a reading of 12 which is when I decided to change the filters. The auto shut off works fine for me. I'm not in the water business, just an amateur who followed the instructions when setting it up. I can't really explain why, just what my experience is.

All that being said I recently set it up for auto top off. I'm now curious to see if the DI membrane will exhaust faster.
 
I don't know what to say other than my experience is quite the opposite. I've had the unit almost 3
years now I think and I've replaced the filters and membranes only once. I run a thousand gallon system, with regular large water changes and at it's worst I had a reading of 12 which is when I decided to change the filters. The auto shut off works fine for me. I'm not in the water business, just an amateur who followed the instructions when setting it up. I can't really explain why, just what my experience is.

All that being said I recently set it up for auto top off. I'm now curious to see if the DI membrane will exhaust faster.


I have said it more then once, what works for one may not work for all. Just the opposite is true as well. What has not worked for most, can work for some. Where abouts is the center of the universe? you may be in an area with good tap water?
 
Good tap water will help, also when you decide to change it also makes a difference. I change it as soon as it no longer reads 0.
 
Peter, Chairman of the Board for Reef Best Practices

Peter, Chairman of the Board for Reef Best Practices

Now we have a Foundation for a new Challenge / Venture that Peter has defined in this statement for himself.
As I read between the lines, Peter has stepped back from a very successful Software enterprise.
His insight/skills have evolved here on Reef Central into a thread of historic proportions at this stage of the build. :beer:

As we all know { or should } there really is not "one" way to be a masochist to this "Hobby" in doing it right.
Peter, with his "Touch" has brought some measure of finite clarity by attracting to this site/him maestros with great experience, chingchai, Mr.Wilson, Cap'n Hiliner and so many more, that lessen the inevitable stumbling blocks so inherent in this.
When I first got into this saltwater thing in the 70's, I used a lot of methodologies from Europe, particularily Holland which were quite different from North American. Now a lot of European "salt" has migrated to N.A., however they di still have some diverse concepts that hopefully will join into this "Peter's Post" as you move forward into Coral's and livestock husbandry where they seem tobe somewhat different from the North American "norm???" Hopefully more from across the pond will chime in.

So Peter, this evolution underway. is to have an important impact on the free wheeling discussion our "Hobby" { along with Cap'n Hiliner's log of it and Mr.Wilson's new book }, and as "Chairman of the Board" you have your work cut out for you!

:artist:

Having followed along, I now stand back a bit and look at what Peter has / is accomplishing. No wonder he was so successful in his previous iditeration in the computer software world {?}
With the help of some of Santa's helpers, and not the least of which has been input from Reef Central, his enterprise has raised the bar significantly by querying everything for a Best Practices Reef.
And then Peter has successfully, set aside many mistakes, that we all have made.
Having had this addiction for more than 30 years, I must say that I have learned a lot from "nineball" who is an ab initio Pilot!

Thank you Peter, and I look forward to a long association with you thru this thread { Hopefully I will soon be able to get to see your masterpiece in person}
Hopefully, thru this thread, some will set up a best practices Reef and contribute to even further advances, Seems like light years between husbandry of the 1970's and what you are implementing today ---- and you are not yet finished building your masterpiece for the "Masters"
Peter, you definitely have the "touch" to marshall resources { and that does not mean $$$}
:beer:
 
sorry I used your name but I ment aquinas.

So your not using a auto top off system? auto top off would allow that high TDS into the DI. Like I said before what works for one does not work for all.

this is very true, and something I considered before thinking about the merlin, but I honestly have to say you are the first person I've heard poor experiences with the merlin from. Just another thing to take into consideration as you go on your daunting quest of assembling Peter's water system is to look into the genesis water controlling systems that monitor top off reservoirs, ro/di production, and automates water changes that can be spread across the course of a week day, or constant. I only bring it up, because it is going to be an integral part of our next system (whenever we finally move).
 
Having followed along, I now stand back a bit and look at what Peter has / is accomplishing. No wonder he was so successful in his previous iditeration in the computer software world {?}
With the help of some of Santa's helpers, and not the least of which has been input from Reef Central, his enterprise has raised the bar significantly by querying everything for a Best Practices Reef.
And then Peter has successfully, set aside many mistakes, that we all have made.
Having had this addiction for more than 30 years, I must say that I have learned a lot from "nineball" who is an ab initio Pilot!

Thank you Peter, and I look forward to a long association with you thru this thread { Hopefully I will soon be able to get to see your masterpiece in person}
Hopefully, thru this thread, some will set up a best practices Reef and contribute to even further advances, Seems like light years between husbandry of the 1970's and what you are implementing today ---- and you are not yet finished building your masterpiece for the "Masters"
Peter, you definitely have the "touch" to marshall resources { and that does not mean $$$}
:beer:

I believe it was Henry Ford that said, "You don't need to know everything, just be surrounded by people that do!" I seems Peter know this very well!
 
I believe it was Henry Ford that said, "You don't need to know everything, just be surrounded by people that do!" I seems Peter know this very well!

Having followed along, I now stand back a bit and look at what Peter has / is accomplishing. No wonder he was so successful in his previous iditeration in the computer software world {?}
With the help of some of Santa's helpers, and not the least of which has been input from Reef Central, his enterprise has raised the bar significantly by querying everything for a Best Practices Reef.
And then Peter has successfully, set aside many mistakes, that we all have made.
Having had this addiction for more than 30 years, I must say that I have learned a lot from "nineball" who is an ab initio Pilot!

Thank you Peter, and I look forward to a long association with you thru this thread { Hopefully I will soon be able to get to see your masterpiece in person}
Hopefully, thru this thread, some will set up a best practices Reef and contribute to even further advances, Seems like light years between husbandry of the 1970's and what you are implementing today ---- and you are not yet finished building your masterpiece for the "Masters"
Peter, you definitely have the "touch" to marshall resources { and that does not mean $$$}
:beer:

Thank you guys, you are waaaay too generous in your praise. I will say that I am proud and extremely fortunate to have met the 'team' we have today. There are some others I will be introducing in the very near future who will continue to add depth to our project. Add the regulars who also contribute to the thread and we can't help but succeed, assuming that I can do what I am told!!!!

I think I have proven the golden principle for all builds in this hobby and that is that money does NOT guarantee success. In fact, all too often it just increases the size of the disaster!

Peter
 
Good tap water will help, also when you decide to change it also makes a difference. I change it as soon as it no longer reads 0.

Absolutely bang on! The whole point of the exercise is to start with the best possible basics and water quality is about as fundamental as it gets. Adding anything to bad water just makes it worse.

Peter
 
this is very true, and something I considered before thinking about the merlin, but I honestly have to say you are the first person I've heard poor experiences with the merlin from. Just another thing to take into consideration as you go on your daunting quest of assembling Peter's water system is to look into the genesis water controlling systems that monitor top off reservoirs, ro/di production, and automates water changes that can be spread across the course of a week day, or constant. I only bring it up, because it is going to be an integral part of our next system (whenever we finally move).

Actually I won't be because Peter and Shawn have already purchased controllers. I will just make my system fit in with what they are going to be setting up once the new sump arrives. I will be adding a monitor which constanly give a TDS reading before and after the DI. This way I know how my membranes are performing at all times. The unit is the HM Digitial PS 202.
 
Finally!!!!!

Finally!!!!!

0_0_10513af4dd4fbb8efffdd7aedd117373_1
Got him with a bucket of patience.
 
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