Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[username in use]

Those cartridges cost almost as much as the filter to replace. The idea with pool use is not to replace them, but take them out, hose them down and put them back in. They are a serious pain in the behind and I would never install one on my pool after having to service them, and I would most definitely not use it on a reef tank. They would have the same effect as the bioballs in that they would be a nitrate factory.

 

[Aquarist007]

In an effort to set standards by way of example I want to ask some really dumb questions to encourage anyone out there to not feel inhibited to enquire about anything related to this hobby or this project using my silly questions as the watermark(pun intended).

My 2200 lbs live rock has been delayed again and is now expected next Friday.

If it arrives Friday night at the airport. Is it ok to wait and pick it up early Sat morning without any serious degredation??

I have two vats with one 400 gal mixed with new salt water we mixed up( is there a recommended SG???). the second is right beside it where it is easy to take the displaced water from the first tank as we fill it with live rock. both storage tanks have heat, pumps and small skimmers. I expect to have the rock sitting for about three weeks before we bring it to the display tank. The majority of the rock is a dense premium Jakarta branch rock and about 500 lbs of fiji premium mixed formation. Do I have enough water prepared? I have absolutely no idea of the displacement?????? I know this is probably a dumb question but I figured we might have a high school physics teacher who might have enough patience to answer this one.

My fish guy wants to do the initial water test and flush of the system with tap water and then use RO/DI to fill the tank and then add salt. Is there a reason NOT to do this?????? Hopefully there is a simple answer for this one that does not stimulate debate.

more later..... I'm off to lunch.

Peter

here is a calculator

http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/weight2volume

However due to the varying densities of live rock it is recommended that you do your own calculations
Fill a pail with salt water --mark the level--put in 20 lbs of your rock--measure the displacement of the water.

 

[dogstar74]

Those cartridges cost almost as much as the filter to replace. The idea with pool use is not to replace them, but take them out, hose them down and put them back in. They are a serious pain in the behind and I would never install one on my pool after having to service them, and I would most definitely not use it on a reef tank. They would have the same effect as the bioballs in that they would be a nitrate factory.

Um I disagree,

The tank will be sealed, so it's not an aerobic environment. This would not produce any more nitrate than the liverock that we're using to produce nitrate and reduce ammonia.

Also the cost of the initial unit is about 900 bucks, the cost of the filters is 150 ish bucks. So I don't know where you get your figures from. Also, there is no one saying that you can't take out the cartridge and wash the filter.

I bet this maintenance would be far less involved than removing a crusty ball valve and all the piping of your CL system and replaceing it due to fouling of the pump and the OM diverter.

Aaron

 

[username in use]

Also the cost of the initial unit is about 900 bucks, the cost of the filters is 150 ish bucks. So I don't know where you get your figures from. Also, there is no one saying that you can't take out the cartridge and wash the filter.

I bet this maintenance would be far less involved than removing a crusty ball valve and all the piping of your CL system and replaceing it due to fouling of the pump and the OM diverter.

Aaron

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but for the smallest model of that filter S7M120 the inner cartridge retail is $289.64 and the outer cartridge is $566.46 which equals $856.10 before shipping. MY cost on them, as a pool company is half of that obviously, but its still a fair amount.


As far as ease of maintenance, if you have ever drained one, taken it apart, cleaned the filters and put it back together you know it takes about an hour if its out in the open. If its crammed into a small space, good luck.


And FWIW, you were the one that said to just replace the filters.

 

[dogstar74]

First Google hit shows both filters for 312. That's for the pair. http://www.poolfilters.biz/index.php?cPath=24

Still seems like less work to me.

So this may not be the best filter. I must agree that I don't know much about inline filters. I assume you do because you've used them/this one in the past. But my point is that I believe you could extend the life of the pumps and OM diverters by simply installing an inline filter OF SOME KIND. I guess the juries out on which kind, the one I posted just seems like a nice choice because it seems to be able to handle the volume.

Aaron

 

[afboundguy]

How about putting one of these inline with the CL before it reaches any pumps, or OM flow directors?

These would be impractical to use on a tank. I worked on pools for a few years and these are supposed to be installed after the pump and since the concern is filtering out sand/particles before they would hit the closed loop pump it would be backwards in order to properly work...

Those cartridges cost almost as much as the filter to replace. The idea with pool use is not to replace them, but take them out, hose them down and put them back in. They are a serious pain in the behind ...

And I agree here except I wouldn't mind them on a pool . They are supposed to be taken out (which indoors would get a ton of water everywhere by the way) and cleaned with special cleaner that I wouldn't want near my tank's water...

And as far as pricing they are about a grand for the two if not more... The link provided above with the low price isn't accurate. I clicked on a bunch of the links and it shows the same picture for all the filters and I would bet my tank that the cheaper ones are the small small small filters as they make a lot of different sized filters...

 

[username in use]

And I agree here except I wouldn't mind them on a pool .

haha, Clean one or two out in a day, and then go backwash a couple of good old fashioned sand filters, than tell me which one you want.

 

[dogstar74]

I understand that this model most likely isn't a good option, but can we agree that SOME type of inline filter that would allow Uber amounts of water to pass so as not to choke the pump would be a workable idea? I have no idea which model or type. It could be as simple as this

or as complex as this:

Truthfully, I don't care what brand, perhaps some of you guys out there who are used to filtering thousands of gallons/hour could chime in here.

But since there isn't a huge call for this anywhere in the aquarium industry, then I am forced to consider that other disciplines could possible offer a solution to this dillema that a simple flip through the pages of Drs Foster and Smith can't offer.

That's all,
Aaron

 

[nineball]

I understand that this model most likely isn't a good option, but can we agree that SOME type of inline filter that would allow Uber amounts of water to pass so as not to choke the pump would be a workable idea? I have no idea which model or type. It could be as simple as this

or as complex as this:

Truthfully, I don't care what brand, perhaps some of you guys out there who are used to filtering thousands of gallons/hour could chime in here.

But since there isn't a huge call for this anywhere in the aquarium industry, then I am forced to consider that other disciplines could possible offer a solution to this dillema that a simple flip through the pages of Drs Foster and Smith can't offer.

That's all,
Aaron

Kids, Kids, Kids ............... stop that, I'm back!!!! I can't leave you alone for a couple of hours????

I do have a filter canister that is dedicated to the CL system. See the tall canister thingy on the front left?????? Thats the filter to catch the nasty bits before anything gets to the chiller in the picture.

NOT in the picture is the second chiller that will be placed on another platform just above the first so that each one alternates every other month. I got that advice from a member of this community and we decided it was good advice. There are some other surprises coming that are a direct result of the excellent help on this thread......but let those be surprises. Remember this is your tank as long as you don't fight over it.

Peter

 

[nineball]

My fish guy wants to do the initial water test and flush of the system with tap water and then use RO/DI to fill the tank and then add salt

This is pretty much a standard procedure for most people. If leaks are detected, you're not wasting RO or salt water.

Peter,

Your rock will come in degrading as it is in shipment. There will ultimately be some death during shipment, unpacking etc... This is a great time to inspect the rock -- as you unpack and place it in your vats. 3 weeks is plenty of time (with proper sw, heat and light) to replenish life and prep it for your tank. If you have any concerns about the amount of death, seed the rock with a life from a lfs or local reefers tank.


As far as how your system is flushed and started-- I've seen it done both ways with no ill effects. Flushing it with tap water is a great way to test for leaks without wasting all that $$$$ on ro/di or salt.

Hope lunch was great

Have enjoyed your thread

Lytehouse,Rybren, thank you both for that. If there is no objection I'm using tapwater to stress test our tank and then ro/di saltwater after that. That is a great relief. Thanks guys.

and yes lunch was great.....

Peter

 

[Givatcho]

If you set up a system that has a drain in the sump at a specific level then you add new salt water to the return pump area of the sump when the water level rises the only water that is put down the drain is old salt water from the tank. There is no reason to have two pumps only one that provides new salt water thus eleminating all these problems. The other upside to a setup like this is that any excess water is then put directly into a drain and does not end up on the floor.

 

[nineball]

The only worry about delay is that it's another night on the tarmac, won't the rock freeze quite a bit? The freezing would kill much more than the time out of water.

Just a thought,
Aaron

I know with the airport situation in Wyoming that air cargo of this type would have to sit outside under the starry sky, but here in Toronto, this shipment would end up in a temp controled facility until cleared by our wonderful gov't officials. They will not work in the cold.... Not withstanding our numb govt officials the weather is looking very mild for the weekend coming.

Seriously, I will double check all of this just to make sure.
Thanks,

Peter

 

[Givatcho]

For a closed loop system instead of using ball valves use solenoids that open and close on your controller. This can create your random flow and make it unnecessary for the maitnence of ball valves. Another option is actuated pvc ball valves that can also be manipulated with a controller. http://www.valvestore.com/products.asp?dept=1429

 

[Givatcho]

http://www.valvestore.com/products.asp?dept=1559 Three way valves might be a better option so that there is no chance of the cl building to much pressure.

 

[nineball]

If you set up a system that has a drain in the sump at a specific level then you add new salt water to the return pump area of the sump when the water level rises the only water that is put down the drain is old salt water from the tank. There is no reason to have two pumps only one that provides new salt water thus eleminating all these problems. The other upside to a setup like this is that any excess water is then put directly into a drain and does not end up on the floor.

Givatcho, with the greatest of respect I can't make sense of this. It is not your fault, just pretend you are dealing with a ten year old child and you might get a handle on how limited my insight is..........

What was the question or comment you were responding to????

Peter

 

[afboundguy]

haha, Clean one or two out in a day, and then go backwash a couple of good old fashioned sand filters, than tell me which one you want.

I'm all set with sand filters... I've had to smell the sand way too many times changing out the sand... Grosses me out :hmm5:

 

[username in use]

I'm all set with sand filters... I've had to smell the sand way too many times changing out the sand... Grosses me out :hmm5:

Why did you change out sand? I've got some where the sand is 20 years old plus, and they are still running perfectly.

 

[mr.wilson]

I have a question about the bio-balls. I have read that they trap a lot of nitrates and this can have negative consequences on the water. Isn't it a good thing if they trap the nitrates? The bad thing is if you don't clean the bio-balls and they get too clogged up? They sound like a furnace filter to me...a great device but detrimental to your furnace/air quality if you don't clean/replace it regularly.

Thanks, John

There was an advertising campaign back in the mid 80's claiming that the bio ball media used for sewage treatment was ideal for fostering the growth of nitrifying bacteria in aquarium filtration devices (wet/dry filters). These bacteria convert toxic ammonia to nitrite, then further reduce the nitrite to an even less toxic nitrate. The problem with the sales pitch is that it was just that, a shallow marketing campaign. Scientific studies show that it takes eight feet of bio balls to achieve the same bacterial culture and subsequent nitrification that you get with just 8 inches of sand.

Biological media have two critical factors that govern their efficacy 1) surface area (real estate) and 2) void space (air gaps for gas exchange). Bio balls offer an abundance of void space for processing raw sewage, but greater surface area is the key to ammonia reduction in aquarium applications.

Reef tanks have more than enough surface area for nitrifying bacteria to populate so any form of biological filter is redundant. Live rock and a sand substrate is all you need. The problem with relying too much on biological filtration is an imbalance can result in residual nitrate. Nitrate restricts the growth of corals at higher concentrations, but is a necessary nutrient for corals nonetheless.

The suggestion of using live rock in the wet/dry filter in place of bio balls is actually counterproductive if one is trying to avoid nitrification, as bio balls are more efficient than bio balls. Bio balls do assist with gas exchange, stripping Co2 from the water and increasing dissolved oxygen, but with proper flow dynamics this is not necessary.

The focus on biological filtration in reef tanks is denitrification (the group of bacteria that convert nitrate into nitrogen gas and nitrite) which is achieved with sand beds, sulphur bead filters, solid vodka media, slow flow denitrators, ion exchange resins, nutrient export (refugia), and circumventing the nitrification process in the first place through the use of mechanical filtration, UV sterilization, ozonation, foam fractionation (protein skimming), and carbon dosing (vitamin C, lactose, methanol/vodka, or glucose).

So to answer your question, nitrate doesn't get "trapped" in bio balls, but it does get produced their. They don't require cleaning as this would remove the biofilms (slime coat of bacteria) that form their. Wet/dry filters should have a mechanical prefilter, but detritus works its way through anyway.

 

[Givatcho]

Continuous water changes are a really great idea in principle, but from a failsafe perspective, I feel like they are a disaster waiting to happen, and at least in my opinion, that negates the benefits you'd gain from one. For example, what if your tank dumped 100 gallons of saltwater down the drain, and then the pump in the saltwater resevoir fails off. Now the sump runs low, putting pumps at risk of starting to suck in air, or worse run dry. Or even worse than that, the top off water fills the void, lowering the salinity to deadly levels. Just like aggressive wet-skimming, there are inherent risks you assume over and above normal risks associated with these things (and there are a lot) when you start exporting saltwater remotely from your system and trusting something to remotely put it back in. Seems to me that with the right resevoirs set up and plumbing already in place, a 50 gallon water change once a week should be just opening a gate valve on the resevoir and also one to dump the water into the drain.

nineball this was what i was replying to.

 

[NewSchool04]

I'm going to make a couple of observations after reading through the whole thread.

You have a beautiful tank, beautiful house, car, and lots of money to spend but the problem I see is you don't seem to really know much about reef keeping. Even the basics escape you.

I find it hard to believe this will be a successful endeavor no matter how much money you throw in that tank without a basic understanding of how to keep fish and corals alive. Late night problems will creep up on you and without a very good understanding of the mechanics of your tank and good housekeeping skills, chemistry and a great eye for when things are turning, I think you are in for many disappointments.

I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see this tank mature.