Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[oneiron]

Thanks for your support Tone.

Aqua Pledge : I will not hold a golf club until salt water is in the tank..........


Peter

Peter:

After following your thread over the past few weeks, I have come to two conclusions:

1) I believe you will be successful in reaching your vision with this project because of your willingness to view challenges with an open mind. Congrats on a great start!

2) This is the wrong forum to bring this up, but I will say it anyway...your pledge of no golf before there is salt water in the tank is a little extreme.

 

[mr.wilson]

Perfectly said.
All I'll add is don't be too stand off ish when handling it.
Plunge it up and down, and give a good twist in the water. You'll be amazed how much comes out. Especially from the rock at the bottom.
Spear/lever ALL crabs. Show no mercy.

Absolutely. Shake the hell out of it. Upside down and in every direction. I use a plastic vegetable scrub brush to loosen large deposits of detritus. I should have stressed the rubber gloves more as well. There are lots of stinging worms that will leave nematocysts (cactus needle-like stingers) in your fingers. I managed to get blood poisoning once from handling live rock without gloves.

 

[nineball]

Here's the Reader's Digest version of rock curing...

TOOLS
Rubber gloves
Tweezers
Narrow screw driver
A coupe of schooners
PROCEDURE
Remove each rock one by one and shake them in a tub of water. This will remove the loose detritus. Treat all crabs as parasites, as very very few are friendly (commensal/symbiotic). Most of the worms you will encounter are harmless, but there will be no shortage of worms in the long run, so go ahead and remove any loose ones that may be injured. If they are healthy, they will be deep in the rock.

Throw any snails you see into a bucket of saltwater and use your new macro lens to get some free identification on here. Watch for mantis shrimp (google it). They are easy to identify once you know what you are looking for. Yes, kill them.

I would use the established saltwater the rock is in now for the rinsing process. Freshwater rinsing is more for corals that may have parasitic hitchhikers. Live rock is less likely to carry bad guys than live corals are. In the case of live corals, freshwater dips and a bath in an oxidizer such as Lugols iodine or potassium permanganate. The water at the bottom of your vats will be turbid/dirty, so make sure you set aside cleaner rinsing water as you work through the vats.

Any sponges, sea squirts, or other invertebrates that have made it this far are hardy and should be left alone. Only new rock should have the sponges and algae removed from it. It is a good idea to reverse the stacking order of the rock as you put it in a new container, so the rock that was at the bottom is now at the top.

Siphon or shopvac the junk off of the bottom of the vats. Remember to elevate the rock on milk crates to provide a buffer zone for crabs, worms and other questionable hitchhikers.

After the rock has been acclimated for two weeks and you have not experienced a significant die-off, you can proceed to introduce a 6 hour photoperiod with somewhat diffused light. If your lighting is greater than 250 watt MHL, then suspend it two feet above the rock. Otherwise, a 250 watt MHL a foot above the water surface should be fine with a 6 hour photoperiod (day). Slowly move the photoperiod up to 8 hours per day over the next two weeks. Watch for diatom algae (brown slime). It will come and go in about two weeks, then you will get green slime algae (cyanobacteria). This too will pass in another month, give or take.

Stare monitoring calcium, magnesium, and carbonate hardness levels. Maintaining these at optimum levels will foster the growth of coraline algae.

It's also a good idea to start sorting rock sizes and shapes so you can have a better handle on your building blocks when you commence with the aquascaping. You don't want to get down to the bottom of the last vat and find those show size rocks you ordered.

* The above information is based on my experience; however, my belief that you will follow these guidelines is based solely on speculation

Thanks Mr. Wilson (Shawn), I am well set up I believe to follow these instructions to the letter. I bought four kiddie pools, a pump,long hose to get rid of waste water and hose with filter to pull old water from vats. Couple of relatively soft brushes, longer rubber gloves and reading your excellent list I realize that I have to get the egg crate/mik crate foundation ready so anoyher trip to the big box store is in order.

This is great Shawn, thank you. I will take pics...........

Peter

 

[mr.wilson]

Thanks Mr. Wilson (Shawn), I am well set up I believe to follow these instructions to the letter. I bought four kiddie pools, a pump,long hose to get rid of waste water and hose with filter to pull old water from vats. Couple of relatively soft brushes, longer rubber gloves and reading your excellent list I realize that I have to get the egg crate/mik crate foundation ready so anoyher trip to the big box store is in order.

This is great Shawn, thank you. I will take pics...........

Peter

Just remember to leave the engine running on the GT when you heist the milk crates from the corner store. The rubber gloves will help with the disguise.

When you say "longer rubber gloves" does that mean you got the large animal veterinarian/Customs officer ones instead of the standard issue opera-length Aquaman gloves

 

[Chago09]

Perfectly said.
All I'll add is don't be too stand off ish when handling it.
Plunge it up and down, and give a good twist in the water. You'll be amazed how much comes out. Especially from the rock at the bottom.
Spear/lever ALL crabs. Show no mercy.

Ya you don't want crabs trust me, its really itchy :bum:

sorry I couldn't resist, my youth is what makes me this way.

Looking good so far Peter, and yes the annoying runs to the hardware store suck.

Just one question for the pros i.e. Mr. wilson.

Peter is obvioulsy cooking his rock right now. You have suggested after cooking to rinse the hell out of the rock, then he may start adding to tank. Now I believe like 100 pages ago you said to always stack your rock without water. It makes its easier to stack and move etc, which makes sense. Now doing all that, will the rock have more die off from lets say spending a hour or so stacking the rock? would it be enough to create him to have a spike in his nitrogen cycle? I have always had a hard time understanding this. I know all the beneficial bacteria grows on the rocks which acts as your biological filter as would bioballs/sponge etc in FW. Now how long out of the water can your "biological filter" survive without recreating a cooking process?

Thanks

 

[mr.wilson]

Ya you don't want crabs trust me, its really itchy :bum:

sorry I couldn't resist, my youth is what makes me this way.

Looking good so far Peter, and yes the annoying runs to the hardware store suck.

Just one question for the pros i.e. Mr. wilson.

Peter is obvioulsy cooking his rock right now. You have suggested after cooking to rinse the hell out of the rock, then he may start adding to tank. Now I believe like 100 pages ago you said to always stack your rock without water. It makes its easier to stack and move etc, which makes sense. Now doing all that, will the rock have more die off from lets say spending a hour or so stacking the rock? would it be enough to create him to have a spike in his nitrogen cycle? I have always had a hard time understanding this. I know all the beneficial bacteria grows on the rocks which acts as your biological filter as would bioballs/sponge etc in FW. Now how long out of the water can your "biological filter" survive without recreating a cooking process?

Thanks

Yes, the correct term is "rinse the hell out of it" or RTHOOI.

By the time live rock makes it through the epic journey from the sea to its final resting place in the end users display tank, the sponges and other air sensitive critters have long perished. It takes about 6 hours to aquascape a 200-300 gallon tank, so a tank of this size can take days. You really don't want to rush the process and you definitely aren't in peak creative or technical mode after being up al night.

I would recommend that Peter does the rock work one island at a time. It will take a day to do each island/rock feature. The rock can be pre-assembled in stages and eventually added to the tank where in can be covered with wet towels or newspapers if it has to sit for a few days. If the rock work is choreographed properly, the four pre-fab rock features can be placed in the tank on the same day.

The other option is to put 4-6" of water in the bottom of the tank and use some powerheads with spray bars to turn the rock formations into waterfalls to keep them wet.

The curing process Peter is currently doing will assure that the rock will be conditioned for the stress of bonding and partial drying. If you go with the wet towels or newspapers, take them off a couple times a day to let the rock "breath".

From a biological standpoint, the aerobic (oxygen-rich) conditions of wet rock is ideal. I believe it was tonyf who suggested curing/acclimating live rock with a spray system where the rock is out of the water throughout the process. I like this practice as well as a similar ebb & flow system whereby the rock vat fills and drains on a constant cycle. These methods not only add more oxygen for biological filtration (nitrification), they also get around any flow dynamic issues as there are no dead spots. The other benefit is some of the bad guys (crabs, mantis shrimp etc.) jump ship and can be picked off of the bottom. If Peter needs to leave the rock partially exposed to atmospheric air for a few days as he crafts his Mount Rushmore reef, there will be no significant die-off or nitrogen spike. If there are any rocks with sponges on them, they can be added after the water is ready to be added. Now I know why he went with four coral heads... Mount Rushmore

Of course it's possible for the rock structures to be prefabbed and added to the tank while it has water in it, but you will need a crane if you do the math (2200 LBS / 4 structures = ~ 550 lbs each).

Just washing all that sand is a days work. For large installations a small (electric or manual) cement mixer is handy for washing the sand. Just hook up a garden hose and start turning it until the effluent water is more or less clear.

Preparing RO/DI source water and mixing salt is another story entirely. The juggling act will be quite a challenge. How many kiddie pools did you buy Peter?

 

[nineball]

I've had lr cooking in a dark barrel for months and once exposed to light zoas started popping up. Some of the life on these rocks are indestructible.

I hope so MTH, I am really pleased with the rock and would not be disappointed if the 'good stuff' survived.

Peter

 

[nineball]

some good looking rock :] if ya have any left over could ya send it my way? cant wait to see the system going. you know how much longer? also what are you doing for lighting? what kinda corals are your favorites?

Antonais, thank you. I suspect that the system will still take a bit of effort yet to make it work as well as I want it to. Lighting will come up soon. The choice of coral will be a function of the styles of the four Grand Masters.

Peter

 

[Padrino]

Peter,
One thing that Mr. Wilson pointed out was the use of gloves and that he once experienced blood poisoning. I know two local reefers in my area that had this and had to go to the hospital every eight hours to get a new bag of Iv that they had to carry around while they were at work. One of them is an engineer at honda. That must have been awkward. Anyways watch out for fireworms They are red and if they sting you, you will KNOW!!

GREAT WORK i can't wait till you actually start the aquascaping. Im assuming you will use the thorite cement to bond your major structure together? Don't for get to pre-drill everything. lots of 1/4" holes

Rob

 

[john baker]

The live rock pictures you have posted look fine to me, the only difference I can see is it has quite a lot of dark color, but if you cannot smell anything this is the first sign of dying/decaying life on your rock. As far as water temp goes it is my opinion that 70 degrees is the lowest you should aim for. you are doing everything else to help it along, as long as there is some natural light over the rock all critters good and bad will survive. It is a good idea to rinse, shake and remove all crabs loose worms unless it is healthy looking. putting the rock 4-6 inches above the bottom of the storage container occasionally will allow critters to fall to the bottom of the container and you can then keep or discard them. Just remember that all critters on live rock are there as a balance in nature. I have seen mantis shrimps in reef tanks that are 1-2 inches and they are model citizens because everything has enough food.

 

[Chago09]

Yes, the correct term is "rinse the hell out of it" or RTHOOI.

By the time live rock makes it through the epic journey from the sea to its final resting place in the end users display tank, the sponges and other air sensitive critters have long perished. It takes about 6 hours to aquascape a 200-300 gallon tank, so a tank of this size can take days. You really don't want to rush the process and you definitely aren't in peak creative or technical mode after being up al night.

I would recommend that Peter does the rock work one island at a time. It will take a day to do each island/rock feature. The rock can be pre-assembled in stages and eventually added to the tank where in can be covered with wet towels or newspapers if it has to sit for a few days. If the rock work is choreographed properly, the four pre-fab rock features can be placed in the tank on the same day.

The other option is to put 4-6" of water in the bottom of the tank and use some powerheads with spray bars to turn the rock formations into waterfalls to keep them wet.

The curing process Peter is currently doing will assure that the rock will be conditioned for the stress of bonding and partial drying. If you go with the wet towels or newspapers, take them off a couple times a day to let the rock "breath".

From a biological standpoint, the aerobic (oxygen-rich) conditions of wet rock is ideal. I believe it was tonyf who suggested curing/acclimating live rock with a spray system where the rock is out of the water throughout the process. I like this practice as well as a similar ebb & flow system whereby the rock vat fills and drains on a constant cycle. These methods not only add more oxygen for biological filtration (nitrification), they also get around any flow dynamic issues as there are no dead spots. The other benefit is some of the bad guys (crabs, mantis shrimp etc.) jump ship and can be picked off of the bottom. If Peter needs to leave the rock partially exposed to atmospheric air for a few days as he crafts his Mount Rushmore reef, there will be no significant die-off or nitrogen spike. If there are any rocks with sponges on them, they can be added after the water is ready to be added. Now I know why he went with four coral heads... Mount Rushmore

Of course it's possible for the rock structures to be prefabbed and added to the tank while it has water in it, but you will need a crane if you do the math (2200 LBS / 4 structures = ~ 550 lbs each).

Just washing all that sand is a days work. For large installations a small (electric or manual) cement mixer is handy for washing the sand. Just hook up a garden hose and start turning it until the effluent water is more or less clear.

Preparing RO/DI source water and mixing salt is another story entirely. The juggling act will be quite a challenge. How many kiddie pools did you buy Peter?

I appreciate your answer but I was asking more for the average reefer, with a 100 - 180 gallon tank. I guess my main question is, if I reaquascape my tank. I will RTHOOI, then aquascape without water for lets say a solid 3-4 hours. Then I will readd about 70% old water and 30% new. Would I be able to readd all corals, fish etc that same day?

sorry for stealing the thread just needed to know. I'm sure everyone else is just drooling at the pics and not even reading my jibber jabber.

 

[nineball]

your live rock temp should be closer to 80 degrees. lots of critters will/have die/d off from the low temp, and the rock will take a lot longer to cure. look up Q10 effect. the rate of chemical reactions doubles with every ten degrees C increase.

see the temperature info at http://www.ronshimek.com/salinity_temperature.html

Crl

I agree. This is why I see no value in using a chiller on a tropical reef tank.

I'm not sure I would totally agree with a ban on chillers but I will raise the temp closer to 80.........

Thanks,
Peter

 

[nineball]

Peter,
One thing that Mr. Wilson pointed out was the use of gloves and that he once experienced blood poisoning. I know two local reefers in my area that had this and had to go to the hospital every eight hours to get a new bag of Iv that they had to carry around while they were at work. One of them is an engineer at honda. That must have been awkward. Anyways watch out for fireworms They are red and if they sting you, you will KNOW!!

GREAT WORK i can't wait till you actually start the aquascaping. Im assuming you will use the thorite cement to bond your major structure together? Don't for get to pre-drill everything. lots of 1/4" holes

Rob

I have six pairs of very very thick gloves.........

Peter

 

[massman]

Peter,
I don't think Shawn was suggesting a ban on chillers, however the prophylactic practice of using the chillers to chill the water down to 24-25 degrees when it can run comfortably at 28 degrees.

(I can't get my head around Fahrenheit, sorry, temps in Centigrade).

Obviously chillers need to be utilised to avoid catastrophe, however, people get too hung up on exact numbers.

On Arlington reef on the GBR (where we do a lot of collecting) water temps swing from 29-30 degrees in summer to 22-23 in winter.
Surface temps of 32 are not uncommon either.
Ever been diving and started sweating? Welcome to my world. We need to cool off after 3 hours chasing fish!

EDIT: Diid some conversions for you:
22 C =71.6 F
23 C =73.4 F
24 C =75.2 F
25 C =77.0 F
26 C =78.8 F
27 C =80.6 F
28 C =82.4 F
29 C =84.2 F
30 C =86.0 F
31 C =87.8 F
32 C =89.6 F

FWIW I always have run my tanks around the 81-82 F mark

 

[nineball]

The live rock pictures you have posted look fine to me, the only difference I can see is it has quite a lot of dark color, but if you cannot smell anything this is the first sign of dying/decaying life on your rock. As far as water temp goes it is my opinion that 70 degrees is the lowest you should aim for. you are doing everything else to help it along, as long as there is some natural light over the rock all critters good and bad will survive. It is a good idea to rinse, shake and remove all crabs loose worms unless it is healthy looking. putting the rock 4-6 inches above the bottom of the storage container occasionally will allow critters to fall to the bottom of the container and you can then keep or discard them. Just remember that all critters on live rock are there as a balance in nature. I have seen mantis shrimps in reef tanks that are 1-2 inches and they are model citizens because everything has enough food.

Thanks John, agreed and noted......expecially the balance in nature part.

Peter

 

[nineball]

I appreciate your answer but I was asking more for the average reefer, with a 100 - 180 gallon tank. I guess my main question is, if I reaquascape my tank. I will RTHOOI, then aquascape without water for lets say a solid 3-4 hours. Then I will readd about 70% old water and 30% new. Would I be able to readd all corals, fish etc that same day?

sorry for stealing the thread just needed to know. I'm sure everyone else is just drooling at the pics and not even reading my jibber jabber.

We are all reading your jibber jabber chago and your question is appropriate. Remember, not everything is geared to 1000+ gal tanks. I will have 32 tanks in the fish room at last count and they will be considerably smaller and certainly relevant to this discussion.

Peter

 

[nineball]

Peter,
I don't think Shawn was suggesting a ban on chillers, however the prophylactic practice of using the chillers to chill the water down to 24-25 degrees when it can run comfortably at 28 degrees.

(I can't get my head around Fahrenheit, sorry, temps in Centigrade).

Obviously chillers need to be utilised to avoid catastrophe, however, people get too hung up on exact numbers.

On Arlington reef on the GBR (where we do a lot of collecting) water temps swing from 29-30 degrees in summer to 22-23 in winter.
Surface temps of 32 are not uncommon either.
Ever been diving and started sweating? Welcome to my world. We need to cool off after 3 hours chasing fish!

Been there, done that. This whole thing started because of my experience on the GBR and the Sydney aquarium. My experience had the air at 30....the water at 30 and not a cloud in the air.......for a Canadian/Australian, paradise!!!

I know Shawn wouldn't ban chillers..........besides he can't help it.....he's Canadian.

Peter

 

[john baker]

Peter have you given thought to letting your tank mature before putting live stock in. I mean maturing as in leaving it for at least 3 months and letting all the small cycles that most tanks go through, small algae blooms and the like, I will be leaving my new tank for at least 6 months. I will try to dig up some great suggestions from very knowledgeable people.

 

[nineball]

Peter have you given thought to letting your tank mature before putting live stock in. I mean maturing as in leaving it for at least 3 months and letting all the small cycles that most tanks go through, small algae blooms and the like, I will be leaving my new tank for at least 6 months. I will try to dig up some great suggestions from very knowledgeable people.

Yes I have and I am tempted to allow 'at least' three months to stabilize before adding live stock. I also want to study the currents very carefully to ensure best placement under ideal conditions for the coral.

I have adjusted my plumbing architecture for the DT by doubling the initial CL setup to two complete systems with chillers, UV and canisters for redundancy and increased water flow. I have also adjusted the open system to provide better flow and organic filtration. more on this later.

for now it is all about live rock......

Peter

 

[Chago09]

Been there, done that. This whole thing started because of my experience on the GBR and the Sydney aquarium. My experience had the air at 30....the water at 30 and not a cloud in the air.......for a Canadian/Australian, paradise!!!

I know Shawn wouldn't ban chillers..........besides he can't help it.....he's Canadian.

Peter

:drool: GBR :drool: I would love to go, but just can't seem to get on a plane for 24 hours. I'll probably do Hawaii before Australia