Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
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nineball
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Capn, I believe it depends on the objective. If filtration is the sole purpose then I agree that both the economics and the efficiency can be met more effectively with base rock as you have described it. But for some it is more than that. The life that comes with the live rock has some appeal for both the aesthetics as well as the positive life forms that can't easily be imported into the tank if at all.
Peter
nineball
Active member
Thanks vic. Obviously I agree with you on these points. Is the octopus intended to be a short term resident or can he/she remain in the long term?
Peter
nineball
Active member
I hadn't heard of this light until I read about it here in your thread, so I know very little about it. That won't stop me from commenting on it thoughJust to clarify, "HID" stands for "high intensity discharge" which encompasses metal halide, high pressure sodium, mercury vapour, plasma, and anything that we can call "bright".
You have a wide tank so focused light fixtures may be too much of a spotlight. It may be better if you had one fixture on each side of the reef angled 30 degrees back toward the reef, pointing at each other. This would minimize shadows and keep light off of the viewing panels while allowing the spotlight to focus on corals rather than just the top of the reef structure.
Selecting intensity (wattage) is a matter of water depth and the type of corals you want to keep. If you plan on having SPS, than you need to be at the high end of the scale. The rule of thumb for selecting intensity with a mixed reef is...
150/175 watts for tanks up to 24" in depth
250 watts for tanks up to 30" in depth
400 watts for tanks up to 48" in depth
1000 watts for anything deeper than 48"
The 3' width of your tank will allow you to use a light on the brighter side (400 watts) without casting too much light on the open sand and viewing panels. Your 150 watt MHL lights will not be enough for even basic soft corals. A good reflector can make a big difference on the total light output. The undersized reflectors that come with the light you have selected cannot possibly compete with larger parabolic reflectors. Most of the light is reflected right back into the bulb with small reflectors.
I'm nitpicking, but I don't like computer/muffin fans on light fixtures, as they are noisy and less efficient than larger blade circulation fans. A properly vented fixture with a heat sink doesn't need a fan. Fans should be reserved for aiming down at the water for evaporative cooling. I can't tell from the pictures. but they may also have the fans pointing the wrong direction (up). When you want to recycle the heat trapped at the ceiling, you have a ceiling fan spin so it pushes the air up against the ceiling so the heat runs across and down the walls to the floor. This appears to be what the fans on these fixtures do. In other words, all of the heat generated from the fan will be pushed into the eater when you aim the fan up. The fans should point down, as moving air is cooler and the reverse effect will happen as hot air runs across the surface of the tank and up the walls to the ceiling where it collects and hopefully is vented out. It's a good idea to install an intake vent at the floor under the tank. As hot air is pumped out near the ceiling, cool air from your floor will replace it. You should buy a directional laser (point & shoot) thermometer to get readings all over your fish room and around the tank. http://hardwareaisle.thisoldhouse.com/2008/08/point-and-shoot.html
I haven't heard of any new LED technology from Philips. They have been six months behind Cree for a few years now. You have to be careful what you read or hear in the lighting business, as the numbers can be manipulated to make it sound like something it is not.
It's a matter of personal taste, but I'm not all that crazy about actinic lighting. I am however sold on moonlighting as I like watching the lunar cycle and the subtle eerie colours at night. I find actinic lighting is too over-the-top for my taste. An alternative is to use really blue 20,000 K 150 MHL watt lights in concert with 13,000 K 400 watt lamps for PAR. You can set all the MHL lights on a timer system so the lights come on in the morning and shut off at night one light at a time, 15-30 minutes apart with the "sun" rising in the East and setting in the West.
If you had selected a 250 watt fixture, you could go with the "wait and see how it looks" approach, but I think you are better off using these fixtures in your fish room or reselling them before they depreciate (as soon as they are out of the box). If you are not sure about how it is going to look you should borrow a few fixtures and test it out. I have been surprised myself on more than one occasion and had to go back to back to the drawing board.
I have a water-proof lux meter but I haven't gotten around to buying a quantum/PAR meter yet. I know where I will be able to borrow one soon though
A quick general lighting tip... wash the protective glass lens weekly, as they can greatly diminish in intensity with salt build-up. People spend a fortune on updating their bulbs and fixtures only to have that light filtered out by salt on the glass. It's the cheapest lighting improvement you can make. A new single edged razor blade and some vinegar on a lint-free cloth is all you need. Just remember to let it cool down first. Also make sure your loc-line sump returns aren't spraying the lens. I find loc-line cavitates and leaks when used out of the water.
Sean, there are no fans on the lighting systems. There are heavy heat sinks and special ballasts to deal with the heat...........
Peter
Sorry to add to this already titanic thread, but in terms of lighting alot of the Australians in the reefing community including myself have been jumping on the LED bandwagon.
Many have been getting custom made LED fixtures from Shenzhen Baisheng Semiconductor Lighting Co in China.
You can essentially custom order anything you want and they will make it for you... cheaply. They will even design custom circuitry for you based on you lighting needs.
Eg. If you want a 300w LED fixture consisting of 100 x 3W leds( 60 white, 30 blue, and 10 purple) and then have them individualy timed for sunrise and sunset effects they will do it.
http://www.bsled.com/newEbiz1/EbizPortalFG/portal/html/index.html
Many have been getting custom made LED fixtures from Shenzhen Baisheng Semiconductor Lighting Co in China.
You can essentially custom order anything you want and they will make it for you... cheaply. They will even design custom circuitry for you based on you lighting needs.
Eg. If you want a 300w LED fixture consisting of 100 x 3W leds( 60 white, 30 blue, and 10 purple) and then have them individualy timed for sunrise and sunset effects they will do it.
http://www.bsled.com/newEbiz1/EbizPortalFG/portal/html/index.html
Antonais1391
New member
Hey Peter im not sure any ones suggested it yet but you might want to consider pinning the LR together with acrylic rods. you can get much more tall shapes easyer then just stacking it. also the acrylic can be bent by slightly heating it with a heat gun.
swissgaurd
New member
peter the octupuss is a short term resident.
once you figure the hitchikers have been removed the octupuss needs to be removed so you can begin adding your livestock the octupuss is a carnivour.
you can then set up a species tank.i think the longest someone has kept an octupuss alive is approx 6 months.quite an interesting animal to watch.
also a small octupuss adds to the cycling process.
my first successful tank setup was cycled by a 2lb lobster with an undergravel filter,tank cycled in 4 weeks without liverock
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
These numbers are with regard to keeping a mixed reef with high and low light corals kept at respective depths. The sun travels 94 million miles to reach the surface of the ocean. From there, light is refracted and filtered out by salts and other particles on the water, removing the red and yellow light that the human recognizes as bright. The remaining blue light is what makes it to the deeper depths.
Considering the distance the sun travels, it decreases in intensity over miles, not inches, so you get the same amount of sunlight on your bald spot as you do on your feet. Artificial lighting is another story. You lose 1/2 of the intensity with every 12" it travels. This means that mounting height
makes a significant difference. So 250 watts mounted 18" o er the tank is equal to 150 watts mounted about 8" over the tank. On top of this, we still have the light we lose as it is filtered out by our turbid yellow water.
If you can handle the heat and electrical bills, it's better to go with higher wattage and raise the fixture or dim it to accommodate the corals requirements.
LED is the way to go if you can get a DIY or custom fixture. I haven't heard of any mass produced fixtures that can compete with mhl for shimmer, PAR or coverage. Energy saving is a out 50% but that isn't much of an inducement on with a $200,000.00 tank
Hookup
New member
These numbers are with regard to keeping a mixed reef with high and low light corals kept at respective depths. The sun travels 94 million miles to reach the surface of the ocean. From there, light is refracted and filtered out by salts and other particles on the water, removing the red and yellow light that the human recognizes as bright. The remaining blue light is what makes it to the deeper depths.
Considering the distance the sun travels, it decreases in intensity over miles, not inches, so you get the same amount of sunlight on your bald spot as you do on your feet. Artificial lighting is another story. You lose 1/2 of the intensity with every 12" it travels. This means that mounting height
makes a significant difference. So 250 watts mounted 18" o er the tank is equal to 150 watts mounted about 8" over the tank. On top of this, we still have the light we lose as it is filtered out by our turbid yellow water.
If you can handle the heat and electrical bills, it's better to go with higher wattage and raise the fixture or dim it to accommodate the corals requirements.
LED is the way to go if you can get a DIY or custom fixture. I haven't heard of any mass produced fixtures that can compete with mhl for shimmer, PAR or coverage. Energy saving is a out 50% but that isn't much of an inducement on with a $200,000.00 tank
I was not aware of the 50% loss ever 12" rule. Look at me, I'm learning!
I'm sure you are all aware but one thing that can be overlooked is the reflector itself. The reflectors you use have a very large impact on the end-result.
IMHO, lighting should be setup/positioned/mounted/created to give the best "coverage" where best is defined as "your desired end-result based upon the inhabitants you have/plan to have". From there, everything is, simple...er.
Generalizations such as the dreaded watts/gallon or even the much better but still not sufficient watts/inch can be misleading. We know that different bulb/ballast combinations have proven to be dramatically different in terms of output. Add wave-length and properties of dispersion and reflector design and quality to the mix and you've really got a mess of variables and these rules of thumb just break down. However, gaining a firm understanding of what the role of lighting is, how it is used by the inhabitants, and how it is created in the aquarium will lead to better decisions.
Unfortunately, there is no chart that says, species x requires wavelengths a,b and c at the following intensities. So in the end you are still guessing... but it's a more educated guess if that counts for anything. :lmao::lmao:
nineball
Active member
These numbers are with regard to keeping a mixed reef with high and low light corals kept at respective depths. The sun travels 94 million miles to reach the surface of the ocean. From there, light is refracted and filtered out by salts and other particles on the water, removing the red and yellow light that the human recognizes as bright. The remaining blue light is what makes it to the deeper depths.
Considering the distance the sun travels, it decreases in intensity over miles, not inches, so you get the same amount of sunlight on your bald spot as you do on your feet. Artificial lighting is another story. You lose 1/2 of the intensity with every 12" it travels. This means that mounting height
makes a significant difference. So 250 watts mounted 18" o er the tank is equal to 150 watts mounted about 8" over the tank. On top of this, we still have the light we lose as it is filtered out by our turbid yellow water.
If you can handle the heat and electrical bills, it's better to go with higher wattage and raise the fixture or dim it to accommodate the corals requirements.
LED is the way to go if you can get a DIY or custom fixture. I haven't heard of any mass produced fixtures that can compete with mhl for shimmer, PAR or coverage. Energy saving is a out 50% but that isn't much of an inducement on with a $200,000.00 tank
Sean, I am meeting with a Philips engineer to discuss the LED's. The commercial systems are capable of throwing 5000 lumens 500 ft. This is extraordinary light power. However it has not been designed for aquaria even though it is suitable for outside wet weather. The light we see in theaters is 12 to 16 lumens reflected off the screen. Also these lights are capable of throwing any colour through program management with the red green blue led's. I do not know yet whether any non visible light spectrum is produced like UV along the way.
Are there any definitive specifications for LED's that meet a baseline criteria for our hobby?
I have seen some very encouraging anecdotal references but nothing that would prompt anyone to spend thirty or forty thousand dollars on a lighting system with any degree of confidence that there was a beneficial comparison between traditional and LED lighting arrangements. If there were some science to support an available algorithm I would think that based on the limited experience I have had with the capabilities of the Philips commercial system that the programming flexibility to choose any colour light, any frequency and any degree of saturation would be game changing for this hobby. But everything I read is far from definitive. Part of the justification is that the current generation of LED's which have only now been practical are still too new to deliver any confidence to the end user.
Thoughts??
Peter
nineball
Active member
Vic, I thought a lobster required considerably colder water unless you were not talking about an Atlantic lobster?
Peter
gig
New member
I looked on the site, no pricing...any idea how much the 300W fixtures go for?
swissgaurd
New member
your correct on temp requirements,lobster survived temp of 78.plus.
i guess our canadian lobsters are tougher than we think.
lobster purchased at dominion back in 1990 at the meadovale towncentre.
i remember this like it was yesterday.
my ex yelling at me for cooking the lobster in the pot( after it cycled tank),
that she used for sterilizing the baby bottles.lmao
vic
MarkGrant
New member
Hi Peter,
I’ve been silently reading your thread for several weeks now and thought it was time I should introduce myself. I’m fairly new to the hobby, 6 months, and don’t have a lot that I can offer yet except to say thanks for this excellent thread and that I would like to commend you on your incredible build. I’ve learnt a lot from reading the many posts here. Your new tank will be able to hold 56 of mine which blows my mind. I wish you much success!
I’ve been silently reading your thread for several weeks now and thought it was time I should introduce myself. I’m fairly new to the hobby, 6 months, and don’t have a lot that I can offer yet except to say thanks for this excellent thread and that I would like to commend you on your incredible build. I’ve learnt a lot from reading the many posts here. Your new tank will be able to hold 56 of mine which blows my mind. I wish you much success!
nineball
Active member
Thanks Mark, I very much appreciate your comments. If I had to list the ingredients for a successful build two of them would be courage and ability to learn. Those attributes I think are the threads that bind this community together. If you haven't done it yet I would highly recommend reading Chingchai's build from the begining. It is an incredible journey that is full of a ton of valuable information. He is probably unique in this community for what he accomplished in such a short remarkable time frame. It is absolutely worth while.
Thanks for joining in.........
Peter
There is an article about David Saxby's reef tank where he talks about having an octopus when the tank was first setup in order to eat mantis shrimp that were hitchhikers.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2682
Hello Peter
Your project is awesome!!! I do not have enough word to describe your project!
On LED lighting, I am following 2 excellent threads on LED lighting on RC where people are designing LED custom fixture using Cree LEDs.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1761942
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1630589
There is a patent issue that slowdown considerably the development (and the acceptance) of LED fixture in the USA. But, the LED is the path to go.
There are some main advantages of using LED:
- The temperature of your tank are not increasing as you can see with MH. Very useful during summer time in Canada.
- LEDs use about half of the power than MH for the same amount of light.
- Using LEDs, you can control the output intensity using a controller.
- Using LEDs, you can control easily the color of you light. (more blue or more white is up to you.)
- LED are good for at least 5 years (or even longer) before you need to change it. Compare to 10-12 months for MH.
- Using LEDs, you can create small area with higher light intensity for SPS and lower light intensity for LFS.
LEDs is the future and it's ready!!!
Chris
Your project is awesome!!! I do not have enough word to describe your project!
On LED lighting, I am following 2 excellent threads on LED lighting on RC where people are designing LED custom fixture using Cree LEDs.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1761942
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1630589
There is a patent issue that slowdown considerably the development (and the acceptance) of LED fixture in the USA. But, the LED is the path to go.
There are some main advantages of using LED:
- The temperature of your tank are not increasing as you can see with MH. Very useful during summer time in Canada.
- LEDs use about half of the power than MH for the same amount of light.
- Using LEDs, you can control the output intensity using a controller.
- Using LEDs, you can control easily the color of you light. (more blue or more white is up to you.)
- LED are good for at least 5 years (or even longer) before you need to change it. Compare to 10-12 months for MH.
- Using LEDs, you can create small area with higher light intensity for SPS and lower light intensity for LFS.
LEDs is the future and it's ready!!!
Chris
You are correct on this. LED is fully capable of doing all of the above, however it simply has not been part of aquaria long enough to be used as a commercially viable "standard". However, if you are so inclined, root through the DIY section - there are some LED built rigs that are pushing the boundaries of LED use in our hobby.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1784873
This one in particular was done with 3W LED bulbs (which are currently the hottest item for every lighting company who has decided to jump onto the LED bandwagon) and mounted on the ceiling several feet above the water surface. I know that there are already some 30W fixtures available though their application has been extremely limited. In addition, there is another build (reference escapes me) where almost every available color is being used on the build just to be able to tweak anything and everything.
I bring these up because if you have the willingness to do a bit of experimentation (and judging by this epic build, you do) I'm pretty certain you don't need to wait for something to come around - you could have it done the way you want. The ability for LED's to succeed is definitely there, so i doubt that failure would be because of an insufficient technology - but rather the execution of it. Judging by the level of detail and design already put into this project, that doesn't seem to be huge issue for you.
venom550pm
Member
lol that's pretty funny. By the way, how did the lobster taste? :beer:
nineball
Active member
Thanks guys, I have spent the better part of the afternoon going through the links you have suggested. They were very helpful and encouraging. I have asked a question in one of them on the shared characteristics of different manufacturers of led's. The Phillips stuff I have been using does not share the same lexicon when describing their technology. We talk par and watts and they talk lumens and other stuff. If all led's are generally the same then there might well be a case for me to jump in. I'm just trying to figure out how to compare apples to apples if possible. This certainly is an interesting subject for sure.
Thanks for the feedback......I'm never going to get any sleep.
Peter
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