Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[reefgeek31]

Nicely said good info. The knowledge i gain from this thread is amazing. I think i have learned more here than the any where else. I feel that is because of the way everything is delivered, no one is being a know it all or talking down to anyone. No statement, thought, or question is made to feel dumb thanks to the whole team!

Absolutely! Penductors, eductors, and flare nozzles like this one create a venturi, drawing more water from behind it. You can move more water without increasing the amount of water going down the overflow drain or flowing through the closed loop lines.

One of the benefits of powerheads over closed loop pumps is they have wide spread flow so corals are not damaged and dead spots can be minimized. The device you linked is one of the ways you can achieve this effect without losing the many benefits of closed loops. Keep in mind, powerheads move water from one end of the tank to the other, while closed loop pumps move water at both ends of the tank as the intake can be at the opposing end. That's 24' away with Peter's tank. If you use flow control valves like Oceansmotions and variable speed pumps you can create any kind of wave action with no moving parts in the water and no ugly powerheads or cords.

Closed loops took a beating when hobbyists decided that it was worth spending $1000.00 to save $30 a year on their electrical bill. The new DC pumps level the playing field once again. Closed loops allow you to locate the in & out lines at any angle and any location you wish, while the best powerheads on the market (Vortech) are limited to the end of the tank in the middle (not close to the surface and not close to the bottom), pointing directly outward across the tank. Angling the exit ports slightly upward moves water toward the surface and creates a rolling/swirling effect that keep detritus suspended rather than pushed down into the rocks & substrate to decay.

 

[mr.wilson]

Mr. Wilson, forgive me for being behind as I've spent the past week or so reading through this thread thoroughly and I'm still a couple weeks behind. I have to ask regarding your acclimation procedures because something about it makes no sense to me. You state that you should match the QT to the shipping water instead of bringing the shipping water to the QT parameters and that I get, it would be less stressful to the fish. However, you say not to open the bag due to pH swings until you put the fish directly into the QT. Maybe I'm missing something here, but how can you know the parameters of the shipping water without opening it and testing it? Then, through the testing period and then the period where you adjust the QT water, aren't you doing exactly what you said not to now that the fish is sitting in the shipping water in the open bag? Is there a step that I'm missing because I'm very interested in your method. I've always drip acclimated and have always had success, but when stocking a very large tank with a number of QT tanks it makes more sense to acclimate all of the tanks to the shipping water and then slowly correcting them.

Hope this makes sense, thank you for all of the help you provide to everyone in this thread!

Of course, I was waiting to catch up before saying it, but obviously Peter your tank is amazing. I can't wait to have a similar (though most definitely less costly system) someday.

Sorry, I was a little vague when I said "don't open the bag". In a commercial setting you are dealing with 10-30 boxes of fish that have 4-200 fish in them. When I put away a box of clownfish or damsels where the parameters will be about the same, I test two or three bags to get an average number. As I mentioned before, double stacked boxes will be cooler on the bottom, so more ice is usually needed for those tanks. As the night goes on, the Ph will continue to drop as the fish breath in the bags. So you open the sample bag and test the water over the course of two minutes, then move the fish to new water.

The problem lies in extended period of the fish sitting in open shipping bags, particularly with overseas or cross-country shipments. Ammonia is non-toxic at a low PH (below 7.5). The Co2 generated by the fish drives the Ph down during shipping. Once you open the bag there is a gas exchange (especially with air lines and agitation). That gas exchange quickly (15-30 minutes) drives the Ph back up to 8.2 where the ammonia becomes toxic again. You can sidestep this problem with ammonia neutralizing chemicals like Prime or Amquel but they don't work on sharks & rays.

Once again, everyone has a different requirement for care. A 30 minute drive from your LFS where they oxygenate the fish is a heck of a lot easier than putting away a group buy that was on an overnight fight from LA or overseas. Transshipments (orders that arrive form overseas and get reshipped without tanking the fish) are the worst because they re-oxygenate the ammonia rich shipping water, thus poisoning the fish with their own water. Ammonia neutralizing chemicals solve this problem but they are not used.

 

[mr.wilson]

I would agree with rocketiengineer in that a gyre is definitely the most efficient flow for a large tank for a number of reasons and is what I use in my relatively tiny 300g. In my application the gyre direct is changed every few hours and has variable intensity. As this is a L shaped tank a true gyre would most likely not be possible.

It would however be possible to have 2 closed loops that feed and return at opposite ends of the tank. When one is running all water in the tank would be moving from the left output to the right intake and be recirculated to the left end output again. In this way all water in the tank would be moving from left to right. If your overflows are located at the ends then all water in the tank would be constantly pushed towards the overflows. It seems logical that this would produce a similar effect to a gyre in a rectangular tank in that the momentum of a large volume of water moving in one direction will move water around it in that direction as well. The other closed loop could be hook up to push water in the opposite direction. Every few hours the direction could be reversed. As in my tank, the more turbulent transition period between one direction and the other does a great job of pulling detritus up into the water column to be skimmed out.

The old standards which calls for "turbulent" or "chaotic" waterflow are really conceptd which are past their day IMHO. Anyone who has been on a reef knows flow is not random or chaotic and the attempt to create such an artificial environment requires more equipment and therefore is less efficient and more complicated that the alternatives. This it not just my opinion, in the last few years the trend towards gyre setups for efficiency and more importantly effectiveness has been detailed in a number of articles. Im sure I can dig the up if your interested.

Looking forward to seeing whichever direction you take. Best of luck and happy reefing!

I agree about the L shape raising challenges. The only solution is to treat it as two tanks with a shared end/corner. One circular, somewhat laminar, flow dynamic travels at one brach and a second at the other. We are changing the current plumbing that consists of one intake and one output closed loop line, to two zones that draw from the opposite end of the tank. It's a simple plumbing change but you're mixing twice as much water without even taking into consideration the laminar/gyre-like effect.

 

[mr.wilson]

Peter,

I Do NOT have a large tank. It's a 150 Gallon custom system but the flow in the tank is extreme. With 2 MP 40s and a Red Dragon 6.5 I'm putting out 7200 GPH Flow. The power heads are always ramping up and down so the flow varies all day long. When they are going all out the water flow is very intense. The SPS Love it.

I'm not sure if MP40s is the way to go but you should consider them. As you know, Closed loop systems are complicated and with all of the turns and bends and requires huge amount of pressure. I'm sure you will figure it out but you should consider some of these low profile pumps in certain areas.

The Tunze is a great option but I just don't like their appearence. If you are running the Profilux the Tunze should really be considered because the Profilux replaces the controller and gives you an immense amount of customisation.

Just a few thought.

Take a look at the flow curve for the Red Dragon 6500, as it looses quite a bit of flow at even 5' of head. They are very energy efficient pumps, but they are very inefficient from a delivery standpoint. They are still great pumps, but you really have to watch how you plumb them in order to get the maximum out of them.

 

[mr.wilson]

What about bringing some of the returns over the top instead of just the bottom it could also give more control of flow especially with a wave making device. Then you could even use 2 more of the bottom holes for drains for 2 more pumps if they where needed.
Terry

We do have the option of drilling holes and getting dirty, but the tank and stand was engineered for what is there and they won't remember me for improving the layout but they will never forget me if I break the tank

There will be two pints on the top of the tank where flow is coming from the sump. One of these is a two directional line, so it's three ports on swirl devices and penductors.

In my experience, overflows work best if you drive water to them from the opposite end of the tank. Directing flow across the surface away from the overflows creates a break in surface tension that causes overflows to suck from below the surface. We are somewhat restricted in where we can go through the existing wall from the fish room to the display tank, but we can make it work. We did consider running water down the end walls in front of the overflow boxes to help with the circular flow idea, but I think our pending 11,000 GPH closed loop pumps will keep the ball rolling.

 

[RocketEngineer]

mr.wilson,

Rolling the various ideas around, let me throw this one at you. Closed loop with wave maker for "center" 8'X3' section and vortech MP40s for each "end" 8'X3' section.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zh6Cz_H8Uhg&hl=en_US&fs=1?rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zh6Cz_H8Uhg&hl=en_US&fs=1?rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
This tank employs (8) vortech MP40s set as two sets of (4) which only results in about 22X turnover for a tank that size. Yet if you watch the video you realize how much of the water in the tank is moving even 9' from the pumps. In the case of this video, the vortechs are mounted in a dry box on either side of the overflow.

Just some ideas.

RocketEngineer

 

[Elliott]

I am a big proponent of closed loops and agree with Mr. Wilson's comments. I run mine with 4 educators along the back wall pointed straight up from the bottom and 2 educators at the top pointed down from the front, so the flow pattern is circular pulling debris from the bottom up. I utilize a 220v Iwaki MX-250 .5 hp pump with a Seimens VFD surge controller to mimic a natural currrent. The pump ramps up and down every few minutes and is off between cycles. Energy consumption is quite reasonable because the current draw follows the ramp up and down cycle. The average draw is approximately 150 watts. Not bad considering it's a 0.5 hp pump. I am planning a large reef with several CL's set up like this.

In addition to comments already made, I prefer CL's described above for the following reasons:

1. Eductors have no moving parts. I have not cleaned mine for over 2 years and have not experienced any significant decrease in flow. Moving parts in saltwater must be kept clean to perform well. The propellers on powerheads will not maintain their spec performance unless they are kept clean. Judging by how long it takes for crud to develop on the front glass panel gives one an idea how fast peak performance is lost.
2. Placement at the bottom back behind rocks allows that area to be kept clean. This would be impossible with a powerhead unless one was willing to dismantle the reef to clean it.
3. Power consumption is moderate if VFD's are used.

My current 300g tank is drilled however my next larger tank will not be. I will run pipe up and over concealing it with removable acrylic panels. This will allow me to move the educators as needed and not worry about bulkheads potentially leaking with a sizable water volume.

One comment about oceanmotions devices. They do not work with eductors since the pressure required to run them freezes the rotating drum inside the device. In addition, one must be careful not to allow any sand to enter since it will also freeze the drum.

 

[MabuyaQ]

Flow on a reef is surface flow and surface flow is mainly wind driven. Wind doesn't suddenly change force and/or direction so the major part of flow on the reef is laminar. It are the geographical formations, high and low tide changes and exchanges with deep water currents that create the chaos/randomness in surface/reef flow. The same should be done within a reef aquarium.
Creating two gyre flows with the closed loops would simulate the main wind driven flow (with as a bonus the extra chaos where the two gyres meet), changing flow direction of the gyres every 6 hours would simulate high and low tide and the sump return could then be used as a deep water exchange current (surface to bottom flow direction). A good setup of the life rock (so no long straight walls) would add the final natural element of geographical formations. Whether you create the gyres with a closed loop as going to be used in this system or with two powerheads doesn't matter but gyre is the way to go.

 

[mrvicz]

ive just spent the past few hours, 2 meals and 2 snacks reading thru the thread ... all i can say is ............ im speechless! congrats on a very very very very beautiful build and beautiful house & other stuffs!

... at the end of the day, its all what the wife says congrats again buddy!

vic

 

[mr.wilson]

mr.wilson,

Rolling the various ideas around, let me throw this one at you. Closed loop with wave maker for "center" 8'X3' section and vortech MP40s for each "end" 8'X3' section.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zh6Cz_H8Uhg&hl=en_US&fs=1?rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zh6Cz_H8Uhg&hl=en_US&fs=1?rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
This tank employs (8) vortech MP40s set as two sets of (4) which only results in about 22X turnover for a tank that size. Yet if you watch the video you realize how much of the water in the tank is moving even 9' from the pumps. In the case of this video, the vortechs are mounted in a dry box on either side of the overflow.

Just some ideas.

RocketEngineer

A dry box is the best way to go with Vortechs. That way you get around the thick glass/acrylic issue and you can angle the box to direct water slightly upward or to the side if desired. It probably resolves the noise issue as well. An open tank/rockwork like that tank makes flow less challenging. Wide tanks definitely cut you some slack.

I think your idea works well for a tank with open rock work. If you have a clean run from end to end, Vortechs or any pump can cover 8' without losing effect. Peter's tank is 16' long on one side so you need to pass the torch somewhere half way.

If the DC pumps from Abyzz, Roay Exclusive, Vertex, or Aqua-Forte turn out to be reliable then they offer everything Vortechs offer and more without the negatives. Unfortunately we don't have much to choose from in Chemically rated pumps. The Iwaki MX 403 has 100' head pressure and 7800 GPH at about 3000 watts. They can be run three phase with a controller. I have one available now, but the DC pumps will be more quiet, cooler, and deliver 11,000 GPH @ 1500 watts, with still about 60' of head pressure.

 

[Ken_Baird]

peter do give paul a call.
he knows his stuff hes studied water flow for many years.
he loves to talk about water motion.
im pretty sure hell solve your problem.
and to think his shop is in brampton.
if you havent met him already.i would recommend him.im sure shawn has met him a few times.

vic

Vic you sound a little one sided on this, after all Paul's closed loops have a hard time moving water. :beer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCgLY0baPOk :bounce1::bounce1:

 

[mr.wilson]

I am a big proponent of closed loops and agree with Mr. Wilson's comments. I run mine with 4 educators along the back wall pointed straight up from the bottom and 2 educators at the top pointed down from the front, so the flow pattern is circular pulling debris from the bottom up. I utilize a 220v Iwaki MX-250 .5 hp pump with a Seimens VFD surge controller to mimic a natural currrent. The pump ramps up and down every few minutes and is off between cycles. Energy consumption is quite reasonable because the current draw follows the ramp up and down cycle. The average draw is approximately 150 watts. Not bad considering it's a 0.5 hp pump. I am planning a large reef with several CL's set up like this.

In addition to comments already made, I prefer CL's described above for the following reasons:

1. Eductors have no moving parts. I have not cleaned mine for over 2 years and have not experienced any significant decrease in flow. Moving parts in saltwater must be kept clean to perform well. The propellers on powerheads will not maintain their spec performance unless they are kept clean. Judging by how long it takes for crud to develop on the front glass panel gives one an idea how fast peak performance is lost.
2. Placement at the bottom back behind rocks allows that area to be kept clean. This would be impossible with a powerhead unless one was willing to dismantle the reef to clean it.
3. Power consumption is moderate if VFD's are used.

My current 300g tank is drilled however my next larger tank will not be. I will run pipe up and over concealing it with removable acrylic panels. This will allow me to move the educators as needed and not worry about bulkheads potentially leaking with a sizable water volume.

One comment about oceanmotions devices. They do not work with eductors since the pressure required to run them freezes the rotating drum inside the device. In addition, one must be careful not to allow any sand to enter since it will also freeze the drum.

Absolutely. Penductors/eductors offer the flared out flow that prop pumps gained their popularity with. You can move a 4 to 1 ratio venturi without spending a penny on the increased flow and with no moving parts in the tank or elsewhere. Another maintenance issue with powerheads and props is the calcification of the motors & impellers as calcium is heated and crystalized/falls out of solution. External pumps like your Iwaki MX series don't have a hot business end (wet end) so they don't need to be cleaned with a weak acid.

Closed loop systems can employ a reverse flow system for self cleaning intake strainers. At the very least you can add some ball valves for manually reversing flow or simply turing the pump around and swapping the in & out for a few minutes. We are going with oversized strainers and we are using a few to spread the intake force out so a shrimp can walk right over a 2 x 5000 GPH intake port. Clogged closed loop intakes are a major reason why people become disenchanted with their closed loop system. At the very least you need to put the strainers out in the open where you can hit them with a plastic brush once a month. Still, big strainers are the way to go. The other obvious issue is pump pressure. Oceansmotions wave makers, penductors, and our long plumbing runs full of elbows require a pressure rated pump. The cheap prices of Sequence Dart pumps took the hobby two steps back. The 4200 pump is noisy, and direct drive, but at least it can deliver water to its full potential.

Again VFDs change everything. I was skeptical at first but after seeing what they can do, I'm sold on the idea. There is still a great deal of bulk water movement as the pump cycles off. Harnessing the power of the body of water lets you push it one way and let it flow back on its own power. Of course powerheads can operate at variable speeds too so the energy savings isn't strictly with closed loops.

 

[Elliott]

Closed loop systems can employ a reverse flow system for self cleaning intake strainers. At the very least you can add some ball valves for manually reversing flow or simply turing the pump around and swapping the in & out for a few minutes.

excellent point, very effective way to maintain patency of flow

 

[Burblecut]

Well after a good week of reading this thread on and off, I'm amazed by the knowledge, grit and dedication this build demands! I can't wait to see the finished product.

I've only been in this hobby for 2 years, so I can offer nothing of knowledge or know how to this thread....however the one thing I can offer is a pat on the back! Good job Peter and everyone else. I hope to learn alot from this massive monster you created.
Cheers:beer:

 

[mr.wilson]

Flow on a reef is surface flow and surface flow is mainly wind driven. Wind doesn't suddenly change force and/or direction so the major part of flow on the reef is laminar. It are the geographical formations, high and low tide changes and exchanges with deep water currents that create the chaos/randomness in surface/reef flow. The same should be done within a reef aquarium.
Creating two gyre flows with the closed loops would simulate the main wind driven flow (with as a bonus the extra chaos where the two gyres meet), changing flow direction of the gyres every 6 hours would simulate high and low tide and the sump return could then be used as a deep water exchange current (surface to bottom flow direction). A good setup of the life rock (so no long straight walls) would add the final natural element of geographical formations. Whether you create the gyres with a closed loop as going to be used in this system or with two powerheads doesn't matter but gyre is the way to go.

This is what I like to see. New ideas from new people. We lost some momentum with 40 pages of elevator conversation, but we can finally move past the weather or temperature in our case

I was not aware of the 6 hour tide rule of thumb. I agree that our wave devices have cycles that are not realistic to natural conditions. I believe that corals need more time to read the conditions and ascertain where to expend energy to feed.

The flat wall (dead end) comment is also bang on. I would like to experiment with curved bottom edges where the vertical panels meet the bottom of the tank. This kind of smooth transition does wonders for Jellyfish kreisels. Eliminating friction where possible can direct water where we want it and literally save energy. Acrylic tanks are easy (but expensive) to bend into curves at the bottom, but for glass tanks you would need to use a solid plastic insert shaped like a skateboard (1/4 pipe) ramp. This may sound like a big project, but it can be easily worked into the design of an acrylic end overflow.

From an aesthetic standpoint, I personally don't like the mechanical look of Tunze wave box "waves". Corals gently sway in nature, while the Tunze wave box is a much faster cycle that is more abrasive than relaxing in my opinion but I can't deny that they help slough off coral slime with constant agitation.

Our sump return pump will be on a VFD (variable frequency drive for those who are not familiar with it) so we can create small surges at the surface followed by a calm period where the overflows can drain a thinner skin off of the surface.

As it stands we are not equipped to change the direction of laminar/pseudo laminar flow but it is still remotely possible. We could use a revolving bulkhead on the bottom that rotates 180˚ every 6 or 12 hours to change flow direction, or we could use a revolving valve that changes the in & out ports on a timer. The latter is easier. If we had more holes in the tank we could use a standard 4 way or 8 way Oceansmotions wave device to change direction every six hours.

 

[venom550pm]

Wow, I feel like a sponge with all that I'm learning on this thread. Absolutely the best forum I've ever been a part of!

 

[mr.wilson]

Okay, nine months into 9 Ball's aquarium project and we finally have a plan and a drawing

http://gallery.me.com/mr.wilson1#100104/9-20Ball-20flow-20plan
http://gallery.me.com/mr.wilson1#100104/9-20Ball-20flow-20plan-202&bgcolor=black

Sorry, I don't post pics much so I need to remember how I did it last time

 

[mr.wilson]

Okay, Peter is the computer guy, I just sniff the glue. I'll let him push the buttons and make the pictures appear.

 

[Bigez]

Mr. Wilson,

Has the team decided on what type of output each pump will be rated at? Were you all trying to design for a circular pattern along both "legs" of the tank? How will rockwork be stacked and where? My biggest question is will pump C have enough output to keep eddies and "dead spots" in flow from forming around the rockwork along the long leg? Aside from that it seems like a good design.

I love this build, there's a wealth of knowledge to this board. Keep up the good work. :beer:

-Eric

 

[Moser]

That is a great pump for a large tank, and as much as Peter's is big, a lot of that size is length not width or height. That would be my first choice for a tank over 3,000 gallons for sure. In a tank that big, you don't have anemones and shrimp etc. crawling around the pump intake. You can mount the pump in a conspicuous spot away from critters without it detracting from the view.

Moving parts in the tank are a bad idea. The Masterstream has a large intake strainer, but I would still build an eggcrate cage around it for a public aquarium setting.

Mr Wilson,

Torsten Luther makes the Abyzz range, formerly the Tritron pumps and the original power stream pump.
He works exclusively on large systems and my system is at the smaller end of his work....

There is no better DC pump on the market than the Tritron. You can run 8 of them with the dedicated controller on a closed loop and I would challenge you to find a better pump for this tank.....

It's tried and tested on multiple European commercial systems for several years and even Klaus Jansen wanted to use this pump as a Red Dragon!.

You can also add the Stream pump which pushes out nearly 200,00l/h if you need it.... at 400W. The Tunze Power stream is a joke compared to this pump. It will push flow 16 feet with no problem. Please look at it this as a real option for Peter's tank and if insisting on a closed loop, please show me a better system than the Tritron closed loop system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkQvcXo3AIc

Thanks
Mo