Creature Morpheus - 3,000+ gallon multi-tank system (Canada)

[CreativeGuy]

@Dave.m and Initial Discussion on Flow in the New Tank Design

@Dave.m and Initial Discussion on Flow in the New Tank Design

@DAve.m: Double inferring that two of the sides are bowed and mirrored. I believe there is a defined term for this geometric shape, will have to find out what it is.


Internal Overflow Design: (still being discussed and designed)

The interior overflow box for exiting to the filtration system (estimated effluent of 4,000 gph) has four internal drain pipes ( two under full siphon, an oversized open channel drain and a safety overflow to a sanitary drain). According to the guide calculator, it needs about 60" linear inches for its overflow. That is not achievable for an external rear overflow box within the confines of the space and exposed glass. Therefore, the internal overflow was the only feasible option.

Closed Loops and Overflow Box Assembly:

There are two concepts being floated for the draws of the closed loops which make a common manifold in the basement for multiple pumps. Both utilizes two surrounding the interior overflow boxes adjacent to the main one, that are like secondary overflow boxes (slightly lower by 1") for the closed loop system (2 @ 3").

The main reason behind this is to draw a greater amount of surface water towards the main overflow and hence to the skimmer.


Closed Loop Draws: The two concepts being considered are:

(i) to go through the bottom similar to the internal overflows for the filtration, ut runs the risk of lowering the water level in the tank below that of the main overflow.

(ii) using an over-the-top piping for the closed loop suctions so they will not siphon down the tank if there is a problem. Also limits few holes in the bottom of the tank.

The rear section is a glass false bulkhead to cover (as well as allow smooth water flow around the tank) the closed loop supply return lines to from above the tank to the bottom where the loops shall be buried beneath 3" of heavier sand.

FLOW DESIGN:

Over the past year and a half, flow dynamics within the main SPS reef tank has been of major importance and design. Spending time and discussing in detail with top designers and large tank specialist at MACNA last week, prompted this major redesign of the aquarium to promote better flow. The general consensus was to create effective motion that changes and emulates chaotic ocean currents in reefs, and best explained in simplified terms within a tank to produce gyre(s) (spiral or vortex) of current and transition them (simply can be in either in a vertical plane or horizontal plane). One of the best ways to achieve this is to get a "clockwise" gyre going for a period of time (say 30 minutes), then reverse it into a "counter clockwise" rotation (for another 30 minutes). During the transition from clockwise to counter clockwise can be a very turbulent or chaotic time. There are challenges to achieve this, especially once you have the momentum of 900g of water going in a circular fashion in the tank and try to stop or reverse its direction. Tanks and water volumes are 3-dimensional, so other factors of height and obstacles like rock, corals and internal overflows also complicate flow dynamics.

As for the original tank, the "L" shape was not conducive for getting a circular gyre going, one of the main reasons for changing it. Therefore, the rectangular bow-fronted shape and moving the interior overflow to the interior and leaving an 8"-9" space at the rear of the tank to allow flow around the perimeter of the tank and assemblage of the centre aquascaped rock making up the reef, which made much more sense.

CLOSED LOOPS WITHIN THE TANK:

Therefore, the design incorporated:

Two bottom closed loops piped and nozzle jets (in this case eductors) around the bottom of the tank perimeter: (a) clockwise with 10 or so eductors; and (b) almost a mirrored loop as "œa" for the counter clockwise gyre.
(c) As the tank shall have a water depth of 36", the bottom loops may not provide effective surface movement to move floating matrials and oils towards the overflow for removal. Therefore, aditional in all four corners of the tank shall be 4 more heads on another closed loop with programable rotating heads to sequence with the clockwise/cc flow patterns.
(d) two Vortech MP60s located on the rear of the tank pointing into the gyre currents to assist in disrupting the gyre and creating chaotic flow during the transitionl time.
(e) another closed loops shall be for within the reef aquascape on an Oceans Motions 4-way to potentially create additional dynamics and blow ditritus materials from the rock.
(f) the last closed loop shall be a manifold with a series of small nozzles to blow ditritus from beneath the rock (not planning on sand beneather the main assembly of the reef.
(g) the two reurns from the filtration system (2 @ 2,000gph) shall be dropped just below the surface of the water onto the reef, shall likely have minimal impact to the overall flow dynamics within the tank.

 

[CreativeGuy]

External Overflow Box

External Overflow Box

In speaking with my tank fabricator (Bow Valley Aquariums of Calgary Alberta), it was strongly suggested to use an exterior overflow than interior for a few reasons (difficult to rock scape around; major lost of useable space within the tank; necessity to drill holes in bottom of the tank). These are consistent with other conversations and my original goals for the tank.

So back to the drawing board we went, and had to figure out a way to modify the house to accommodate. Although lots of plumbing and piping has to be figured out, here are the initial revised general illustrative drawings for discussions of the proposed external overflow box.

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

I just started reading through your thread, congrats on lots of info and "thinking through."

One question - Why would you want your safety overflow to drain outside the tank? As I understand the "Herby" style overflow, the redundant drain is left loud so you know the primary siphon and secondary overflow drains have failed, but it still drains to the sump.

Although the actual use of the safety overflow is a remote possibility - dumping tank water down a sanitary drain seems counter-intuitive and might conflict with a top-off system which sans salinity monitoring would try and replace the lost saltwater with fresh.

 

[CreativeGuy]

@calmSeasQuest

Your point is valid. Really my thoughts on that were of safety as not to flood over into the house. Plumbing the safety overflow back to the sump versus the drain is about additional 30 feet of piping. In a perfect world it would never be used, lol. Like I went to a facility on Monday morning and a thermometer floated into the effluent on only one of several tanks on the system and plugged it, tank over flowed for several hours in the night and there was 4" of water on the floor, which drained the water from the filtration sumps. That would be a prime example of why it would be prudent to do what you said and return that safety back to the sump.

Good Idea ! Thanks

 

[dave.m]

If you feel you need to have an external overflow, does it have to be in the middle of the bow? I would think such a design would add an awful lot of complications to fitting both the overflow and the chamber beneath it to the bow. If you're going to keep a two-sided bow, it seems to me to make more sense to put the external overflow on one end. That way you can keep the bow look for aquarium viewing both sides. If you can afford to lose the bow to an external overflow on one side, you can also afford to lose the expense of the bow on that side, reducing tank fabrication costs. Just a thought.

Dave.M

 

[adam1980]

Tagging along!

 

[CreativeGuy]

Location Location Location

Location Location Location

@Dave.M.

If you were designing and building the house around the tank, I would agree. However, this project is going into an existing home and the location is in the center of four rooms that are arranged in an open concept design. Attached is a drawing of the rooms and situated ow-front tank. As it is, to do this renovations are necessary to remove pre-existing custom cabinetry (than is of a balanced/mirrored design in the dinning room) and granite counter tops and floor to fit it in. Again, budgets and expenditures not accounted for in the scope of things. Changing the tank design was a minimal upgrade, the house renovations are not. (Neither is having to deal with the friction of doing this tank this large).

The only place for the exterior is at the center of the rear bow. Not the ideal of circumstances, but the only feasible practical choice. The ends and bow are highly viewable to the rooms and their activities, the rear bow has the most obstructed viewing as it is substantially built into cabinetry and the entertainment centre which has hugely been encroached upon. Just the outside edges of the rear bow front are visible.

 

[CarlitosReef]

I can't wait to see this!!! My dream tank is about 2Kg

 

[CreativeGuy]

@CarlitosReef

Quite the target a 2K display tank and project.
Sincerely the best wishes on such an endeavor.

 

[CreativeGuy]

DEEP SAND BEDS - Major Component Design Change

DEEP SAND BEDS - Major Component Design Change

DEEP SAND BEDS

During the past months I have researched and read about DSB, as well as visited various long term established facilities and spoken with very creditable people (in my opinion, with a wealth of experienced-- inclusive of Ron Stimek’s research, Morgan Lidster of Inland Aquatics, re-known aquarist Stuart Bertram of England (and D-D) , Ryan Shelander, Lead Aquarist at A&M aquatics, and others). Though my understanding of the science, experience and long term proven performance of deep sand beds, that if designed, constructed, established with good crews and bacteria, with little disruptive maintenance and proper attention, they function well if set up well and left to do there work. Therefore, I am confident and a proponent of DSB. They are an essential and therefore a major and primary component of my filtration system.

System/Component Changes ...

There have been several changes from the initial concepts and proposed design, the two prominent changes being:

(A) The main Display Tank being a modified segmented bottom sub-straight;
(B) The design of the DSB sump from one 14” deep (100” x 51” x 25”) 500g DSB into two 8” deep (96” x 32” x 18”) @ 235g each = 470g.
(C) The third location in the 330g secondary display tank shall be set up with a 5” DSB with a pair of Vortech’s MP60s for flow; hopefully controllable not to disrupt and suspend the sand.

A more detail explanation of background and reasoning follows ....

(A) - Main Tank: During my MACNA weekend, there were a lot of detailed discussions regarding the DSB in the main display tank. Initially I had planned on 100% coverage of a DSB of primarily sugar fine sand, great for biological activity. However, as I became more informed from people of experience, modifications and strategies would be necessary, few of these are:

(i) The 1,000g tank with its intended flow and counter flow activity, it would pose issues, therefore, it will not having a complete deep sand bed within the main SPS display tank as previously planned because the high rate of flows necessary for a SPS habitat would disrupt and suspend the sugar fine sands and deposit them throughout the tank. Yet, the aquascape shall need to look full of sand, so the exposed areas of the tank (not directly beneath the assemblage of reef rock) shall be covered in specially selected sand.
(ii) Yet in a couple of areas within the large tank, I am hoping to isolate a couple of locations that can hold 6” to 7” deep of sand and be protected by making a cove around the pocket with rock to shield the area from high water flow. These pockets would hopefully sustain several DSB critters like gobbies and dean up crews.
(iii) In trying to keep the detritus from building up under the live rock and reef, and purging it out with a closed loops under the rock, would be incompatible with flows required to be effective. Therefore, my objective shall still be to suspend the live rock off the bottom several inches and have the detritus purging loops beneath them and maintain little to no sand (clear bottom) directly beneath the rock-scape.
(iv) Yet around the perimeter I shall have two primary closed loops (for clockwise and counter clockwise gyre motion), each with multiple discharge heads with eductors to create an effective gyre. These are to be buried in sand but the sand shall be of a heavier density and larger size.
(v) In order to accomplish these differing set of parameters, I shall be designing and having built by Cerameco.com, a series of man made ceramic reef pieces for the bottom of the tank that can divide the space into areas descried above.

There will be some testing and experimenting in temporary set ups to see how things function in the tank. Eventually a in-tank trial run will happen in the main display tank and tweaking it, before starting to place corals in it. The rock shall be cured/seeded in a temporary system for several months and further placed in the main tank one to two months additionally before any reef-scaping.

(B) DSB Component of System: Below is a CAD drawing illustrating an initial proposal for a 14” deep sand bed with 8” of water. However based on more research and discussion, as indicated by Ron Shimek (and confirmed by others) that the normal DSB critters and animals that live in aquariums have or occupy a habitat that is limited to a depth of 8”. Beyond this depth does appear to have some benefit, yet such gains or benefits are minimized in the deeper environments for the efforts and associated cost. Water surface area is also beneficial. Therefore, to maximize more surface area and limit the sand depth to 8”’, I change from a custom acrylic 100” x 51” x 25” deep (as illustrated belong) to two fibreglass tubs 96” x 32” and 18” deep. These shall be placed side by side and have an 8” deep sand and 6” of water flow (80g) with some live rock placed on the sand surface to impede flow and also have sponges to be grown on the rock. The tubs are non-transparent and shall be covered with black acrylic lids, so the DSB shall be shielded from any light. Each tub shall have just over 15 cubic feet of sand with an intended water flow through of approximately 3 to 4 water changes per hour (300gph). Total service water will be 600gph over 30 c.ft. of sand that has a surface area of about 44 square feet. The tanks are designed with 3-way valves for balancing or adjusting flow and by-pass of the filtration water through the system.

An added bonus was the cost of both fibreglass tubs (USED, but they work) was almost the MATERIAL cost alone of a single 3/4” black acrylic sheet for which the single DIY sump required 3 sheets plus the time and effort to build it. YEAH ! many pennies saved.

(C) Secondary 330g Tank: The last segment in the main system is the DSB in the 330g tank which shall have 5” DSB and utilize two opposing MP60s for turbulent and random flow. Hopefully these shall create flow patterns that do not disrupt the DSB at the bottom.

------------------------

Will post some revised drawings and pictures of the DSB tubs and sand later this weekend.

 

[CreativeGuy]

Photos: DSB Fiberglass tubs and Live Sand

Photos: DSB Fiberglass tubs and Live Sand

Here are the used fiberglass tubs 2 @ 235g each (inside measure over 96" x 32" x 18") and shall be filled with 8" to 9" of live sand and 6" of water flow overtop.

This are the first two tubs of 10 year old established live sand brought from 400 miles away (Inland Aquatics in Terre Haute Indiana). Use to start seeding my live rock. Wet sand is HEAVY, need fork lifts to move/unload them.

Closer View

 

[muttley000]

Wow! Big changes! Is all of your DSB research word of mouth, or can you give a list of reading?

 

[CreativeGuy]

@muttley000

Know Who You Are Learning From ....

No, I do not tend to take things by only word of mouth, but if I respect the level of expertise and experience of the person who is saying things, it carries a lot more weight than all the forums and general discussions that tend to have a slighted, hearsay or half-truths to them. So when I have been speaking in person and having in-depth discussions with Charles Deleek, Morgan Lister, Ryan Shelander, Stuart Bertram and others with large established long term experience, I do try to learn from the best people I can and listen to what they have to say.

Do more than Just Listen ....(Common Sense Advice)

Taken heed to their input AND reading many available materials helps me understand what I am reading and how to best apply it. It is IMPORTANT to read creditable reference materials, so I am glad that you asked (as not to take my opinion) to tell you what my reading materials were (thus far, because always looking to learn more).

Be Open to More Information ...

If you have read information to the positive or negative, I would be interested in knowing. Guess that is the engineer in me. As a forensic engineer who has investigated failures in buildings and construction for 20 years, we learn more most times by investigating why things fail and determining the "origins and causes" than we do from the successes. Be open to receiving more opinions and sound information. Each circumstance can be uniquely different, so bits of information may apply and change how we do things that suit our particular circumstance.


Now to Answer Your Questions, lol ..... Some items of reading where ....

Sand Bed Secrets by Dr. Rom Shimek ISBN 0-9664549-6-0 (Shimek is probably one of the formost authorities on DSB with over 30 years of research and involvement with DSB and marine aquaculture. Has written many technical papers, books and articles.).
The Reef Aquarium - Volume 3 - Delbeek/Sprung
Dynamic Aquaria -Building Living Ecosystems - Walter Adey/Karen Loveland
Coral Magazine- DSB Special Issue October 2007 Articles by Shimek; Calfo

The above were more technically and science orientated books/articles.
THere were a number of web searches on the science level (sorry do not have those links handy, but did print pertinent ones for my reference reading); easy to do nowadays. You can from the references and technical recommended readings listed at the back of many of the above referenced books, find many technical papers written over the years for further reading.

Many of the other aquarium books have more general references and summaries of what DSB do, yet do not add much to the basis for selecting and/or designing a good DSB system.

Other books/magazines/websites (Tanks of the Month) which highlight great systems like "Ultimate Marine Aquariums" by Michael Paletta, THe Inspired Aquariums by Jeff & Mike Senske, and Coral Magazine are also good resources to see common elements such as DSB and how they are integrated into their systems. Not always an in-depth technical level, but seeing how people do incorporate DSB into the systems helps reaffirm decisions to implement DSB into my system.

Hope that answers your question muttley.
Have a great weekend.
Joe

 

[dave.m]

FYI - The other sand bed books out there are by Bob Goemans. The big difference between Shimek and Goemans is in grain size. Shimek favours finer sand because he says it is less stressful on the animals who live in the bed. Goemans favours larger grains because he says it traps and holds less detritus than a fine grain bed. Since neither has set up and tested the other's method I suspect they are just postulating. I prefer to look at real world examples and listen to the people who have success. Unfortunately, in this case it turns out that people have success with both these methods.

I am not against your having DSBs at all, Joe. Rather, I am all for them, but not in the DT. I am just conflicted on the best DSB method, as there have been successes and failures for all methods. Same thing with Miracle Mud. The only really consistent thing I've learned from reading other's experiences is that once a DSB is established do no mess with it. If you take it off line for any time consider it dead - clean it out and start over.

I'm just up the road from you in the Forest City. Would love to come see your set-up when it is ready.

Dave.M

 

[CreativeGuy]

@Dave.m

Have appreciated your input and comments. Would be always open to having you (and others) to stop in .... once I have something worth while to see, lol.

I shall look up Goemans, especially since in the main display I am expecting to try some larger and heavier grain size in areas to hide piping, so interested in learning what he has to say. Thanks.

 

[muttley000]

Hope that answers your question muttley.
Have a great weekend.
Joe

Better than I could have hoped for! What I have read is mostly pro, but I was looking for something a little deeper which you have provided! The people that I trust that I have talked to are pro also, but not at the level of who you have been dealing with

You have a great weekend (what's left) also!

 

[CreativeGuy]

Conceptual 3D Image

Conceptual 3D Image

The new design is much larger and simpler, and is much better suited to the location and surrounding viewpoints in the home (provided parts are renovated to make room).

 

[CreativeGuy]

Combination interior and exterior Overflow

Combination interior and exterior Overflow

Unknown Territory for me ....


I am not sure if some has a working installation or any experience in this proposed type over over flow system. There a few basic drawings for the modified tank for review and discussion. As previously mentioned, the modified design greatly simplifies the fabrication and poses some additional challenges. There are a substantial number of benefits to having an exterior overflow box (rather than an internal one in the centre) with the two biggest being there would be no holes in the bottom of the tank and provide a huge working are for the tank for rock scaping.

The challenge becomes getting sufficient SURFACE flow frorm the large tank to the effluent returns and thus back to the skimmer. Calculators for 3,000 to 4,000 gph would require 40" as recommended for a rear coast to coast overflow box. The layout and as-built design for the home, only provides a space to work behind the tank of about 24" (and that's if I install another wall to create a chase area. So the maximum external over flow would be approximately 22" wide roughly in the centre section of the rear bow.

Therefore there the concept being proposed is another interior overflow box placed in front of the smaller/lowered section to the exterior overflow box. The length would be in the range of 46" as to provide additional rim length for the surface skimming. However, no holes would be drilled in the bottom of the interior overflow box. The plan for this interior enclosure is also to house the closed loop pipings that would be plumbed over the top, both suction lines (effluence draws) out and multiple returns as described above in the proposed flow.

The logic behind this is to:

(i) keep the lines hidden from sight in the main tank;
(ii) cause additional surface skimming into both overflows from the main display tank by the high volume closed loops in comparison
to just the filtration flow out of the tank;
(iii) there are several closed loop piping loops to the bottom of the tank,
these will exit at the bottom of the vertical on the interior avoiding
any holes being drilled in the main tank.
(iv) the bottom of the vertical glass panels of the interior overflow shall not be continuously sealed to the bottom, but have open sections to accommodate the closed loop piping. The plan is to construct several sections of man-made ceramic rock pieces to cover the pipe and reduce the glass openings (to be adjusted or balanced depending on flow conditions).
(v) the top perimeter is expected to have a slotted adjustable overflow to also vary the flow into both overflow boxes.

In speaking with other that had experience, keeping two independent overflows balanced is extremely difficult if not almost impossible. However, running these two in series creates a totally different flow strategy. I am going to try some mock ups with acrylic just to see what happens.

Going to cross post this part in "Silent overflows" to see if others might have experience or input.

EXTERNAL Box - Installed on site: In order to make this tank work and be ale to fit through the door openings in the house here, the external overflow box shall have to be fabricated there, but installed here after the tank is in place. As it is larger than typical and more a squarish rectangle, I am expecting to provide a steel supporting framework under the overflow box.

 

[CreativeGuy]

I apologize for the crudeness of the 3D drawings as I am not proficient with Google's Sketch Up software and it shows, lol. Better with Autocad, but don't do the 3D drawing there either. Have to look at more tutorials and try to get better. Helpfully you get the concept.

Over the Top Piping

Only one over the top pipe is shown above. However, within the real tank, there are multiple plumbing lines over the top main effluents for the closed loops @3", two for the bottom circular loops (clockwise/cc), one group of four in the rock formations for the Oceans Motion 4-way and the detritus clearing loops on the bottom.

More Research and Discussions to be had ....

Hoping to hear from anyone with experience of a in series set of overflows as the tank manufacturer is awaiting final production approval to move forward. Hoping to find out on the height of the tank (e.g. 36" water height) vs glass, but the only engineer i have been able to find familiar with the analysis of large bent glass and aquariums stresses is out of the country until next week. Going today to speak with a specialized welder (he is a national two-time champion and lead instructor at a College) of stainless about the top rim support to see what he has to say and get his input.

Have a good day all

 

[tgunn]

With my 140g tank I had a sump turnover of approximately 1200gph through an overflow with 15" of linear length (the calculator on here recommends 18"). Although this worked fine enough, the higher flow meant that the water level sat about 3/4" above the lip of the overflow. I had tried increasing the turnover through my sump (the pump was already dialed back) and the water level rose to over 1" above the lip of the overflow; far too close the tank spilling over in my setup.

Any algae overgrown or bubble algae along the overflow lip would quickly raise the water level in my tank. In fact, that happened at one point so much that my tank ended up overflowing.

If I hadn't broken that tank down I would have reduced my sump flow through to 1/3 and used a 400gph pump.

The takeaway from that is to ensure that there is enough room in your tank to accommodate a raised water level if your overflow is too small for the flow through the sump.

The way you've got things configured with your double overflow, I suspect that the water level will no drop over the top edge of the first overflow (ie the closed loop one). The fact that you're going to have openings at the bottom of that overflow is going to lend to the water wanting to reach a level between the tank and the overflow. However I don't think that's a bad thing; it will still achieve your goal of pulling water into the closed loop from different levels in the tank.