I don't know how to tell which sponge needs light. Is there a way to tell. Trial and error on placement doesn't suit me but I usually go that route . It's great when a sponge just appears and happily grows without my involvement . I want to get those orange sponges that are Caribbean . Those ball and finger sponges that I see on KP Aquatics or live-plants.com . I am thinking of putting them in my fuge but I dont have uv light down there or blue spectrum . I don't know whether they survive . I see them orange or red so I assume if they have algae with them they are reflecting that spectrum .
NS Mike D
New member
This and the Intelligent Design threads have really helped me and I encourage new hobbyist and those not so new but struggling with a lot of different commercial "fixes" to read these threads.
Understanding the 4 zones/cycles and how they interact should ease the stress of dealing with the affects of an unbalanced new tank. How many threads start out with something like this "I am testing little to no N&P and yet (insert algae/cyano struggles here)" followed by a dozen or more recommendations from lights out, chemical additions to removing the rock and starting over while only addressing two zones of the cycle?
Additional, the complexity of the microfauna and interaction among the reef inhabitants also makes our tanks far more interesting that the pretty colors and shapes.
Thanks to the members who have been contributing to the two threads. My healthy tank inhabitants are grateful as well, even if they don't know it.
Understanding the 4 zones/cycles and how they interact should ease the stress of dealing with the affects of an unbalanced new tank. How many threads start out with something like this "I am testing little to no N&P and yet (insert algae/cyano struggles here)" followed by a dozen or more recommendations from lights out, chemical additions to removing the rock and starting over while only addressing two zones of the cycle?
Additional, the complexity of the microfauna and interaction among the reef inhabitants also makes our tanks far more interesting that the pretty colors and shapes.
Thanks to the members who have been contributing to the two threads. My healthy tank inhabitants are grateful as well, even if they don't know it.
NS Mike D
New member
Live Aquaria has pretty reliable information about the requirements for the sponges they sell.
You can also purchase tiny rocks that are seeded with the cryptic sponges from other sites (like reeffarmers). These are the low flow low light (cryptic and semi-cryptic zones) sponges that are being disused here as part of the natural filtration system.
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karimwassef
Active member
You know you can sell coralline algae on the net now. Don't toss it 
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
Karim,
Threw dinner plates of coralline algae away. My tanks specialize in growing coralline right now.
Louis,
Basically almost all sponges offered for sale in retail stores are from exposed zones. Those Orange fingers, yellow balls, etc. Have a symbiont in them. Cryptic sponges are almost impossible to collect and ship to market. Difficult to reach and very delicate. You have to wait till they grow out of dark rock sides or coral base rock. Hitchhikers. That is what I have done. Now I don't think we have even experimented with the true cave sponges that have high bacterial symbionts. Those would be awesome. A powerful all in one filtration animal for the captive system. Would also like to get semi cryptic coralline species. Branching ones.
Threw dinner plates of coralline algae away. My tanks specialize in growing coralline right now.
Louis,
Basically almost all sponges offered for sale in retail stores are from exposed zones. Those Orange fingers, yellow balls, etc. Have a symbiont in them. Cryptic sponges are almost impossible to collect and ship to market. Difficult to reach and very delicate. You have to wait till they grow out of dark rock sides or coral base rock. Hitchhikers. That is what I have done. Now I don't think we have even experimented with the true cave sponges that have high bacterial symbionts. Those would be awesome. A powerful all in one filtration animal for the captive system. Would also like to get semi cryptic coralline species. Branching ones.
Some of these have been available on fleabay.
In the bottom of mine I've seen blue, red, black, yellow and white sponges. The white tends to reach out pretty well and spread. Yellow spreads well but stays attached to hard surfaces. I should really make it viewable in the new set up, but I've been afraid to mess with it. I've figured out a way to move the sump into the new set up without taking that area out of it. It sucks laying on the floor with a flashlight.
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You know you can sell coralline algae on the net now. Don't toss it
That is unbelievable. :lol: I see cheato selling for 30 bucks for a quart bag. Since I shut down my skimmer, I wackado about a gallon bag a week. The only time anyone around here wants it is after setting up a new reef. I can't give it away.
karimwassef
Active member
that's because there's no good marketing behind it. color, texture, and light zone make a big difference in the value of coralline.
For example, I have every color of low light coralline and it grows like the plague. But I can't get any to grow in my 1600 PAR zone. If I did find it, I'd pay for it.
For example, I have every color of low light coralline and it grows like the plague. But I can't get any to grow in my 1600 PAR zone. If I did find it, I'd pay for it.
$1000 was total electric bill which included 4 ton heat pump for AC in house. I also operated a 5 HP water well at 900' with a max flow rate of 25GPM, which I was using for irrigation. I pulled the plug on green house and let the grass die. The total monthly electrtic bill dropped $600.
On a side note, evaporation makeup in greenhouse was 150 GPD. Each gallon weighs 8.34 lbs and when each pound evaporates there is 1000 btu of cooling. If I pushed my numbers correctly that is 1,251KBTU of total cooling in a 24 hour period divide by 24 equals heat removal required per hour is 52KBTU One ton of AC removes about 14KBTU per hour. In the smaller sizes, one ton is equal to 1 HP. It would require 3.7HP running 24/7 to remove the same heat that 150 gallons of evaporation. In the smaller size units a ton is equal to 1HP. One HP is .746KW/Hr. So cost to remove heat gain, if using AC in 10K gallons in green house was 3.7 HP times .746KW/HP times 24 hours or 66.24KW per day would be $6.22 per day times 30 equals $187 per month. This is the amount required if using standard refrigeration.
Instead of planning system ahead as you are doing, I just did it. Sometimes, I did it more than once.
karimwassef
Active member
hmmm.. probably best to take it back on my build thread so as to not take up room in this thread 
With both geothermal and evaporation - I have a lot of real estate dedicated to cooling.
Would you post in my thread what you think it would cost ?
With both geothermal and evaporation - I have a lot of real estate dedicated to cooling.
Would you post in my thread what you think it would cost ?
Thank you for the kind words. Eric Borneman was quoted as saying "If someone tells you that their way is the only way to operate a reef tank, run from them. I like to steer My boat downstream without fighting the current going upstream. My only show tank is a 75G Jaubert Plenumn mixed gargen on top with a 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom. This tank has been set up for 25 years, it was moved ten years ago at this present location. Due to a red planaria infestation in the sump, I had decided to turn off lights in refugium and grow pods. Since finding this thread, I am stoked about this cryptic zone filtration and have seeded refugium with sponges. In my past mixed garden tanks, I have kept sea apples alive for 2 years and flame scallops for 18 months. Filter feeders fascinate me and I am looking forward to keeping NPS.
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Getting back to nutrients, several of the surprises when I was looking at the research on phosphates was PO4 was higher away from the reefs and the lowest levels anywhere in the ocean where found on reef flats (clearly corals sucking up as much as they can get). Second was phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals to utilize nitrogen. Yet another is microbes are needed to convert organic into inorganic wheich is mush easier for corals to utilize.
https://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/oceanbiology/reprints/conkrightetal_DSR1999.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/2645650/The_Oceanic_Phosphorus_Cycle
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601
https://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/oceanbiology/reprints/conkrightetal_DSR1999.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/2645650/The_Oceanic_Phosphorus_Cycle
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601
Fifteen years ago, Schreiber operated there oxidation wastewater facilitities to target phosphate removal. By stressing the bacteria with low oxygen conditions, they documented increased phosphate uptake by these bacteria. In my 25 year old Jaubert Plenumn, facultative bacteria perform denitrification chemistry and free up a nitrogen gas molecule.
karimwassef
Active member
started selling my rock ledges.. here's what was under the first one.. consistent nutrient rich low flow area behind the overflow but avoids all the fast movement
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg"/></a>
any idea that that pink stuff is? it has fleshy bumps, then long threads to other new bumps
Then there are the usual dark pink blobs (so scientific) and the worms and tubes
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg"/></a>
any idea that that pink stuff is? it has fleshy bumps, then long threads to other new bumps
Then there are the usual dark pink blobs (so scientific) and the worms and tubes
.
From the last two papers . I am damned if I do and damned if I don't . I think I just have to stop messing with the nutrient levels so much and try to achieve a balanced ratio of N/P vs ultra low levels . So if my levels are high my zooxanthelle are happy along with the nuisance algae . But reduce the levels then I starve both . So does this mean that the herbivores are the ones that keep the reef from being overtaken ? so I take it as keep the nutrients from being way high to avoid the macro algae from over growing the coral and employ a lot of herbivores to control the algae that does pop up .
So from this article I see that DOC is a stressor to the corals . So my skimmer is important yet not enough if only at 30 % effective . So my chaetomorpha refugium is a big source of DOC . So I think I am going to get rid of it anyways since I have no room for a light in my sump after recent upgrades and purchases . So a sponge zone is where I should head to with increased herbivore in DT and moderate levels of of N/P . Sorry I am so confused :headwallblue:
karimwassef
Active member
I think of it as a team... teamwork
Poop is the start of the cycle for me. In addition to directly feeding coral, it feeds a range of pods and worms (which also feed coral) who break it up so smaller corals can take it in. Detrivores are key here.
Then as those organics break down, they feed the algae scrubber. This works because of high air-water surface action and lack of predation compared to the DT. Again, this generates bacteria and other DOCs, but consumes the bad inorganics N and P. Algae are key here - algal sequestration.
Then the sponges (and corals) consume those bacteria and DOCs, maintaining a healthy balance of DOCs for corals to both feed and be safe of pathogens. The sponges also precipitate granules and create more opportunities for life (to feed corals). Sponges key here - sponge sequestration.
Then corals and fish consume the balance of food and restart the cycle of poop. I feed my fish algae to recycle. Fish are key here.
Simplistic - but works for me
Poop is the start of the cycle for me. In addition to directly feeding coral, it feeds a range of pods and worms (which also feed coral) who break it up so smaller corals can take it in. Detrivores are key here.
Then as those organics break down, they feed the algae scrubber. This works because of high air-water surface action and lack of predation compared to the DT. Again, this generates bacteria and other DOCs, but consumes the bad inorganics N and P. Algae are key here - algal sequestration.
Then the sponges (and corals) consume those bacteria and DOCs, maintaining a healthy balance of DOCs for corals to both feed and be safe of pathogens. The sponges also precipitate granules and create more opportunities for life (to feed corals). Sponges key here - sponge sequestration.
Then corals and fish consume the balance of food and restart the cycle of poop. I feed my fish algae to recycle. Fish are key here.
Simplistic - but works for me
dz6t
New member
Marco algae release a lot of sugar and some protein in the water, which in turn feed the coral. I will say algae, sponge and coral form a food web that is mutually beneficial.
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