karimwassef
Active member
Ok. So this needs to align with the very low measured inorganics in real reefs. That means that it's about balance.
I have no measurable inorganics in my reef, but my corals grow well. But that doesn't imply that there are no inorganics being produced.... it just means that the uptake = generation so that the net remaining at any point is sub-measurement.
I'm a heavy feeder and rely on my algae to ensure that any excess inorganics generated are consumed. It looks like sponges can basically buffer this food cycle, allowing more food to be recycled.
Will need to use Steve's chart and add algae to see the triangle of food and waste interaction. The algae likewise consume inorganics and generate food in the form of biofauna and bacteria. I see the algae as the biomass "sink" sequestering excess until consumed for recycling my fish and inverts....
That means that it's a four sided food web with coral, sponges, algae and fish/inverts. What a tangled web she weaves..
I have no measurable inorganics in my reef, but my corals grow well. But that doesn't imply that there are no inorganics being produced.... it just means that the uptake = generation so that the net remaining at any point is sub-measurement.
I'm a heavy feeder and rely on my algae to ensure that any excess inorganics generated are consumed. It looks like sponges can basically buffer this food cycle, allowing more food to be recycled.
Will need to use Steve's chart and add algae to see the triangle of food and waste interaction. The algae likewise consume inorganics and generate food in the form of biofauna and bacteria. I see the algae as the biomass "sink" sequestering excess until consumed for recycling my fish and inverts....
That means that it's a four sided food web with coral, sponges, algae and fish/inverts. What a tangled web she weaves..
karimwassef
Active member
Yes. That's what I consider the primary food for coral.
Bugs Rule
Bugs Rule
I just found this thread a few days ago. Lasty night, I purchased both of Steve's ebooks on sponges. I like it when the nutrient sink is something desirable like pods, macro, sponges, corals and fish. The plan is to change a ten year old mud/macro refugium into a cryptic zone. With lights out on the refugium, I can grow sponges, pods, and numerous filter feeders. The beauty of this system is that the nutrient sink is desirable: sponges, pods, filter feeders of all kinds, coral, and fish. On my sumpless macro lagoon tanks, I will stick with GAC.
While I suspect most of the readers of this thread are aware of this but I will repeat. Ken Felderman has done much research on the bacteria community in reef tanks during extensive testing on carbon dosing in our reef tanks.
His data showed that protein skimmers removed at best 30%-40% of DOC. GAC removed 50%-60% and the mature reef tank inhabitants processed >75% into their biomass. Pretty good substantiation with peer reviewed research papers.
Glad to be tagging along.
Bugs Rule
I just found this thread a few days ago. Lasty night, I purchased both of Steve's ebooks on sponges. I like it when the nutrient sink is something desirable like pods, macro, sponges, corals and fish. The plan is to change a ten year old mud/macro refugium into a cryptic zone. With lights out on the refugium, I can grow sponges, pods, and numerous filter feeders. The beauty of this system is that the nutrient sink is desirable: sponges, pods, filter feeders of all kinds, coral, and fish. On my sumpless macro lagoon tanks, I will stick with GAC.
While I suspect most of the readers of this thread are aware of this but I will repeat. Ken Felderman has done much research on the bacteria community in reef tanks during extensive testing on carbon dosing in our reef tanks.
His data showed that protein skimmers removed at best 30%-40% of DOC. GAC removed 50%-60% and the mature reef tank inhabitants processed >75% into their biomass. Pretty good substantiation with peer reviewed research papers.
Glad to be tagging along.
Last edited:
SAT
Premium Member
Steve,
:lmao: My stomach lost its ability to process large quantities of Fritos a long time ago. And yes, I learned from the experience. However, after poking around, I now believe marine fish get all the potassium they need by direct absorbtion from the water (380ppm).
karimwassef
Active member
I still think cryptic is not in balance alone. Algae plays an important role in its rate of nutrient sequestration.
Nature is diverse because each contributor fits a need that they do best. It's not to dimish the benefits of a cryptic zone, but to enhance it.
It's like playing soccer (futball for outside the US) and only having a team of defense and a goalie... sure.. you can do it. But nature is playing with a full deck.
Nature is diverse because each contributor fits a need that they do best. It's not to dimish the benefits of a cryptic zone, but to enhance it.
It's like playing soccer (futball for outside the US) and only having a team of defense and a goalie... sure.. you can do it. But nature is playing with a full deck.
dz6t
New member
Very well said.
I have both crytic zones and refugium. I also run skimmer and GAC.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
karimwassef
Active member
No skimming or GAC for me - just nature.
But I will use a UV if things go wrong.
But I will use a UV if things go wrong.
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
Karim,
A friend of mine in the Philippines has been trying to get me to add the turf algal component to my system. He has also taken the cryptic zone and expanded out an extensive and unique filter feeder section. Apparently he is trying to patent his modification in the Phillipines. Living under martial law right now over there. But basically I think the reef has enough Algae already just within the corals. All the zooxanthellae algae. That's enough for the nutrient uptake we need, assuming you add no food. But turf algae will grow if you have light and lack herbivores. So I grow coralline algae to out compete the turf algae. There are reasons why you don't want a lot of turf or macro algae in your system. They tend to promote virulent bacteria. It is actually a aquarist health issue too, potentially. But I have fought too many fights in the past. So you guys will just have to fight that out amongst yourself. lol. My main concern is finding the base framework of a coral reef system.
A friend of mine in the Philippines has been trying to get me to add the turf algal component to my system. He has also taken the cryptic zone and expanded out an extensive and unique filter feeder section. Apparently he is trying to patent his modification in the Phillipines. Living under martial law right now over there. But basically I think the reef has enough Algae already just within the corals. All the zooxanthellae algae. That's enough for the nutrient uptake we need, assuming you add no food. But turf algae will grow if you have light and lack herbivores. So I grow coralline algae to out compete the turf algae. There are reasons why you don't want a lot of turf or macro algae in your system. They tend to promote virulent bacteria. It is actually a aquarist health issue too, potentially. But I have fought too many fights in the past. So you guys will just have to fight that out amongst yourself. lol. My main concern is finding the base framework of a coral reef system.
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
Subsea,
Sent you an email about the book link. That is interesting info on what the skimmers can remove. If they could remove 100 % they would stop foaming every now and then. But a well stocked reef tank can constantly produce skimmer foam. So that 40 to 50 % figure seems reasonable. Almost all the nutrients on an oceanic reef are bound up within the existing biomass. What is available in the water column is very minor compared to existing biomass. That is true of organic and inorganic. That is Darwin's Paradox. All that live living in a nutrient desert basically.
Sent you an email about the book link. That is interesting info on what the skimmers can remove. If they could remove 100 % they would stop foaming every now and then. But a well stocked reef tank can constantly produce skimmer foam. So that 40 to 50 % figure seems reasonable. Almost all the nutrients on an oceanic reef are bound up within the existing biomass. What is available in the water column is very minor compared to existing biomass. That is true of organic and inorganic. That is Darwin's Paradox. All that live living in a nutrient desert basically.
karimwassef
Active member
ok 
when I snorkel, I see zones of algae and then zones of coral. The high air exchange, shallow, warmer areas are dominated by algae.
Algae in coral tissues can't absorb massive nutrients like free algae can. The free algae is a sink because it can literally double in size in a week (in my tank, it can). It's a safety net like no other to remove excess nutrients that would otherwise kill a tank.
I use it because I feed excessively... There's no way to match the "food" content of the reef while maintaining a sub-measurement inorganic N & P content of the reef ... without algae.
With my scrubber, I feed
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg"/></a>
yes - 4 bananas today.
and my scrubber:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg"/></a>
and my fish and corals eat constantly without N and P rising up from under the measurement thresholds..
when I snorkel, I see zones of algae and then zones of coral. The high air exchange, shallow, warmer areas are dominated by algae.
Algae in coral tissues can't absorb massive nutrients like free algae can. The free algae is a sink because it can literally double in size in a week (in my tank, it can). It's a safety net like no other to remove excess nutrients that would otherwise kill a tank.
I use it because I feed excessively... There's no way to match the "food" content of the reef while maintaining a sub-measurement inorganic N & P content of the reef ... without algae.
With my scrubber, I feed
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg"/></a>
yes - 4 bananas today.
and my scrubber:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg"/></a>
and my fish and corals eat constantly without N and P rising up from under the measurement thresholds..
karimwassef
Active member
yup only 400W though
dz6t
New member
Full paper is here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882574/#!po=14.7619
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882574/#!po=14.7619
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
karimwassef
Active member
300 gallon? It's 50 gallons.
And my DIY that was there before was 500W of LED... yes!
I grow pounds of algae
And my DIY that was there before was 500W of LED... yes!
I grow pounds of algae
Last edited:
