Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

[Steve Tyree]

Karim,

The definition of turf is fairly broad. Referenced an article in my book about what it has meaned. But basically it is any close cropped assemblage of algae. Species is not as important as the constant grazing.
From what I can gather you are feeding your algae inorganics produced from fish waste, after bacterial breakdown to inorganic, and then feeding the manufactured carbon algal biomass back to fish. If you add external food you must harvest something or let excess production sink into a deposit bed. My reef is producing wafers of coralline algae with no external food input. Plus coral frags, sponge frags and tunicate reproduction.

 

[Steve Tyree]

Karim,

Just glancing through thread when I have time. Is nori high in potassium ?
https://www.google.com/search?q=banana%20potassium&client=ucweb-b&channel=sb

 

[karimwassef]

That's right. Any additional food maintains a larger algal biomass in the scrubber.

I do have sps and LPS corals dropping frags in the sand constantly. I don't have the reach to rescue them, so many get buried. Those that survive end up quite healthy for the experience.

 

[karimwassef]

I don't think Nori is particularly high in K.

Are you thinking that the fish gravitate towards the bananas to get more K?

 

[saf1]

Karim,

Just glancing through thread when I have time. Is nori high in potassium ?
https://www.google.com/search?q=banana%20potassium&client=ucweb-b&channel=sb

No - small amounts only. If I had to guess it is more of an opportunistic food source. Like I mentioned in one post while diving in some areas I've seen the dive masters feed banana's. I wouldn't expect Tangs to munch on them but have seen damsels and other fish around the reef crest going to town. If it works, it works. Probably similar to people feeding some worms and other non local sources of food.

But Karim's fish like them so why not

 

[karimwassef]

well.. my fish are greedy.. they eat anything vegetable based...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/69-8Ji2_cCs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DTk2ZieENVQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6avb0Nc17NY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mSzO3DBbSE0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EsQVMlAs-DA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NM6NfluWX18" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/G4TFl5HMx0Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2DyGITDkgwM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/trjJyWV5DK8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7qHgBf5D5wY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Timfish]

I've seen distictions made between "Turf", "Macro" and "Folacious" algae but like Steve said they are vague terms. I saw a presentaiton a couple years ago by Dr. Haas who's looked very closely at the relationship between algae, microbes and DOC and he had a chart of the DOC production of 6 or 7 algae genus. What we call "hair" algae was at top with huge DOC output compared to Halimeda spp and chaetomorpha spp. which was at the bottom. (I haven't found it online but it might be this paper I haven't bought yet.) One of the contradictions his research team found was on reefs completly over run by algae DOC levels were far below helathy reefs and in some samples was undetectable. Dr. Haas discusses how algae promotes heterotrophic microbial growth in this Science Direct article Looking at Dr. Haas research (and Dr. Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas") along side Steve's and Dr. de Goeij's it easy to see just how critical cryptic sponges are in maintaining beneficial microbial populations in our systems along with healthy DOC types/species and levels.

Looking at Karim's feeding and maintnenance regime it's seems to me to correlate to what happens on reefs. Algae grows and releases DOC that promotes heterotrophic microbes. Herbivores eat the algae that Karim has harvested. The fish release ammonia, urea (and amino acids?) and phosphate into the water. Corals compete with the algae by soaking up and ingesting the ammonia, urea and any amino acids and phosphate to feed their symbiotic algae. Corals release DOC that promotes autotrophic microbes. Cryptic sponges remove DOC released by the algae and sponges and remove both heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria that's feeding on the DOC. Sponges convert the DOC into nutrient rich detritus that feeds the filter feeders in the system (and releases small amount of inorganic nitrogen and PO4). Since there is a net increase in the coral biomass versus the algae biomass the microbial populations shift towards autotrophic types. And instead of tides and currents to help keep refractory DOC at acceptable levels water changes remove the refractory DOC that builds up over time.

 

[karimwassef]

I would add one more variable... aeration.

I don't protein skim, but I inject gallons of fresh air with a dual penductor high pressure pump. It must be fresh air with a very stable O2 to CO2 ratio. Without it, bad things happen in my system. That's partly due to Alk and pH stability, but it also creates a pressure gradient to inject O2 AND CO2.

The AND is capitalized because my algae consume CO2 at an outstanding rate. The biomass can push my pH from 8.1 to 8.4 in a few hours through photosynthesis. I need an infusion of CO2 ... and that actually lowers my pH.

Likewise, the aeration injects O2. And while most believe that we have no issues with oxygen in our waters, I would conclude that there are always pockets of low oxygenation, especially with low flow regions. Achieving high oxygenation at low flow is important in my view.

Finally, the aeration coalesces the DOC and bacteria into larger clumps that get fed back into my DT. If you watch my videos, it sometimes looks like a sand storm... but the corals are constantly feeding.

I don't know how violent aeration plays into the microbial landscape- but it has been key to my success.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r4kz-EuSApY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vngRWiQhLfY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[karimwassef]

Ok. This may not be the best forum for this question but with such a smart and educated audience, I thought I'd ask.

I have a unique kind of bacteria in my tank that forms a thick base under a hairy fuzzy growth. It's black in color. It doesn't spread through the water very effectively. Instead, it encrusts sideways on the rock. It holds up to EXTREME flow and grows under direct light. It looks like mold but microscopic investigation confirmed that its bacteria holding on to bacteria. It actually looks to be several microbial organisms including cyano whose mucus seems to play a role in the base's adhesion to rock. We have photo and video surveillance of the pest: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2567904&page=23

I've been researching bacteria-eaters trying to handicap this growth (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.htm).

I've used chemiclean to break it up but it returns. I know that the sponges in my tank are good bacteria consumers but they can't go on the offensive against this encrusting offender.. can they?

I've thought of pulling out little pieces of sponge and blending them to "inoculate" the reef hoping to get them closer to the problem. But they'll come back in the cryptic shadows instead of the brightly lit high flow zone of this pest.

Note that my corals are still growing very fast and my tank is very healthy with no algae except in the fuge. But this growth actually pushes against the coral growth plate wherever they meet. Some coral even grows fast enough to go up and around it, but what a waste of energy.

It doesn't kill my coral, but it fights it. No fish or snails eat it.

And the vids. Will work on getting all the vids up to my youtube too.

Black_Mat_Sample01_01 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_010 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_011 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_012 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_02 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_03 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_04 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_05 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_07 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_08 by Jason, on Flickr

Ideas?

 

[Timfish]

Sorry, I don't have any real good idea. But what gets me thinking is after reading Haas' stuff on macro algae promoting various heterotrophic microbial life and the fact we cannot stock all the various types of herbivores that are found on reefs is there some imbalance or missing species? What happens over say 6 months if you keep your macro algae at a half or third of what you historicely have had it at? Are there small herbivores like small shails or hermit crabs or nudibranchs that will eat it or disturb it so it isn't as prevelant?

 

[karimwassef]

No one eats it.
I don't have macroalgae, just turf (hair) in my scrubber and inaccessible parts in the DT
Where there is turf, there is no bacteria.

 

[Steve Tyree]

Karim,

Yes. Possibly they are eating it for potassium. Banana are a potassium rich food.

 

[SAT]

Are fish smart enough to like a food for the K? I would have assumed they just think it tastes good.

 

[Timfish]

No one eats it.
I don't have macroalgae, just turf (hair) in my scrubber and inaccessible parts in the DT
Where there is turf, there is no bacteria.

It's impossible to say if the DOC released by turf algae promotes the black mix of cyano and algae and other organisms but turf algae is releasing DOC that promotes heterotrophic bacteria. It may not be as much as what hair algae does but it is promoting bacteria.

 

[karimwassef]

I'm ok with bacteria in general...

This particular combo of bacteria is the only thing bugging me. The fact that it's not free floating, can form a solid mat base and has long black hair makes it different from anything else I've seen. I wish there was an encrusting sponge that would counteract it.

 

[Steve Tyree]

Sat,

How did you feel after you ate a whole big bag of Frito's. Probably not doing that too often anymore. All they know is they fell better and are stronger. They dont know aout the potassium. Lol.

Just getting over flu, will comment on other thread points tonight.

 

[karimwassef]

Not sure that fish can taste? No idea.
Organisms don't consciously know why their brains gravitate to certain foods, but their bodies do. At least that's the theory- here's an article on animals eating dirt to access minerals in it: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/would-you-like-side-dirt-eating-soil/

 

[Steve Tyree]

Karim,

Good post. Myself. My body feels good after eating fish. Bad after eating a big bag of Fritos. So I eat more fish then Fritos lol.

Gonna try to post an image of one of the figures in my CMAT Volume 2 book. Shows the basic exchanges going on in the Sponge Loop. Now this is a cheesy camera pic of the figure printed out and hanging on my wall. Best I can do right now.

 

[karimwassef]

Thanks. So corals uptake dissolved inorganic N and P?
I would expect that this is very small?

 

[dz6t]

Thanks. So corals uptake dissolved inorganic N and P?
I would expect that this is very small?

Yes they do, actually pretty significant. A few scientific papers have been published regarding it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk