Crypto in the gills

[b0bab0ey]

As some of you already know, I have a PB Tang in QT that I've been treating for Crypto since Jan 1. Now to be fair, I can only say for sure that the Coppersafe level has been maintained at 2.0ppm since Jan 11. That's the day I bought the proper copper test kit for Coppersafe and started testing the copper level every night just before the lights go off.

I haven't seen any more white spots but the Tang is still twitching/scratching on the PVC around her gills. In fact, it's much worse today than I've ever seen. Two rounds of Prazi have failed to have any impact. So, I can only assume she still has Crypto in her gills.

I'm going to wait until Feb 11 to hit the panic button. That will be one full month in 2.0 Coppersafe. But I'm wondering if hypo works better on Crypto in the gills or any other alternative method (Quinine Sulfate perhaps?) that any of you have had success with. This is a bare bottom QT with no rock of any kind, only PVC. Seachem ammonia altert badge has always read 0.

I really don't want to lose this fish.

 

[3rdimension]

I tried treating ich and crypto with hypo, nothing else and they got better, then worse again. I waited too long without chemical treatment and lost an auriga butterfly last night. I'm trying Voogle now in hopes it'll help boost the other fish's immune systems

 

[b0bab0ey]

I tried treating ich and crypto with hypo, nothing else and they got better, then worse again. I waited too long without chemical treatment and lost an auriga butterfly last night. I'm trying Voogle now in hopes it'll help boost the other fish's immune systems

Thanks for the response. I'm researching Chloroquine Phosphate and Quinine Sulfate as alternative treatments. Not my usual MO, but I'm not gonna just stand idly by after a month or so if the copper doesn't work. I have no experience with hypo, and I don't see tank transfer working if the Ich never falls out of her gills.

 

[snorvich]

I don't see tank transfer working if the Ich never falls out of her gills.

The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. In very rare cases, a protomont can form on the fish itself instead of traveling to the substrate. In this case the the protomont remains attached to the fish. It will still encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. But this is a very, very rare circumstance.

 

[geaux xman]

After I had my velvet outbreak, i had the 4 angels in QT(7wks)-cupramine(1 month). Even after about 2 weeks of cupramine., the fish was still flashing bad. I did 1hr formalin dips on each fish every other day for 2-3 treatments. Each time returning them back to the cupramine bath. After each dip, the flashing subsided a lot. After 2 weeks the velvet should also starting to be eradicated in copper too

I've formalin dip my 5" PBT 2x without any issues. I can trap and scoop a fish using a small bucket out of my QT in hardly any time. So the transfering the fish process is really short and does not stress the fish out. In the formalin dip, the fish just swims around without any issue. Formalin dips might even be easier on the fish than FW dips considering 1 hr in formalin the fish is okay, but 10mins in FW, the fish could be dead.

Formalin is carcinogenic though. So if performing, use proper precautions.

 

[b0bab0ey]

The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. In very rare cases, a protomont can form on the fish itself instead of traveling to the substrate. In this case the the protomont remains attached to the fish. It will still encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. But this is a very, very rare circumstance.

So, let's say for the sake of argument that this is one of those very rare circumstances and my PB Tang has protomont(s) in her gills. What can I do about that?

All of the trophonts disappeared a few days after she was put in QT (and in copper) and I haven't seen any since. That was almost a month ago. None of the other fish she is in QT with have displayed any trophonts, flashed or shown any symptoms of Crypto whatsoever. The PB Tang is now on her 3rd consecutive Prazi treatment and the head twitching continues unabated. I realize I probably need to leave her in copper for another month or so to be sure, but if the head twitching continues, what other conclusions can I draw?

 

[b0bab0ey]

After I had my velvet outbreak, i had the 4 angels in QT(7wks)-cupramine(1 month). Even after about 2 weeks of cupramine., the fish was still flashing bad. I did 1hr formalin dips on each fish every other day for 2-3 treatments. Each time returning them back to the cupramine bath. After each dip, the flashing subsided a lot. After 2 weeks the velvet should also starting to be eradicated in copper too

I've formalin dip my 5" PBT 2x without any issues. I can trap and scoop a fish using a small bucket out of my QT in hardly any time. So the transfering the fish process is really short and does not stress the fish out. In the formalin dip, the fish just swims around without any issue. Formalin dips might even be easier on the fish than FW dips considering 1 hr in formalin the fish is okay, but 10mins in FW, the fish could be dead.

Formalin is carcinogenic though. So if performing, use proper precautions.

Thanks, I'll definitely consider Formalin dips soon. The way I see it, I can never return this fish to the DT until her symptoms completely go away. And I can't just leave her in a QT, in copper, forever. So, at some point I'm going to have to chance it and start experimenting with unconventional treatments. What really sucks is this is no ordinary fish for me. I've really bonded with her and even my wife, who normally pays little attention to my tanks, really likes her a lot. She's even given me the green light to buy her a 6 foot tank once we move. :thumbsup: I can't imagine how bad it must suck for couples with kids and the kid bonds with a particular fish and then it dies. Must be like losing a dog every time it happens.

 

[snorvich]

Formalin dips (and fresh water dips) will help with velvet but not with ich as the parasite embeds much deeper.

 

[snorvich]

So, let's say for the sake of argument that this is one of those very rare circumstances and my PB Tang has protomont(s) in her gills. What can I do about that?

All of the trophonts disappeared a few days after she was put in QT (and in copper) and I haven't seen any since. That was almost a month ago. None of the other fish she is in QT with have displayed any trophonts, flashed or shown any symptoms of Crypto whatsoever. The PB Tang is now on her 3rd consecutive Prazi treatment and the head twitching continues unabated. I realize I probably need to leave her in copper for another month or so to be sure, but if the head twitching continues, what other conclusions can I draw?

Remember that Prazi loses effectivity in copper. You will probably have to treat with Prazi after copper (twice a week apart)

 

[b0bab0ey]

Remember that Prazi loses effectivity in copper. You will probably have to treat with Prazi after copper (twice a week apart)

Yes, I know that. However, in times past I've had fish in copper that developed symptoms of head twitching. I would dose Prazi and almost immediately the head twitching stopped. It would return several days later unless I kept treating with Prazi. But in this case the Prazi has absolutely no effect on the head twitching.

 

[Paul B]

I'm researching Chloroquine Phosphate and Quinine Sulfate as alternative treatments.

I would use regular copper. Coppersafe is (acording to the label) a stabilized form of copper. I never used it so I don't know anything about it.
Regular copper measured at least once a day I feel is the second best treatment for flukes or any type of paracite. It is potent and a little too much will kill the fish and a little too little will do nothing. I used to use a product with formalin in it also.
The best treatment is copper along with quinicrine hydrocloride.
Quinicrine, Chloroquine and pyrimethamine are all human malaria medications and not easy to get. I have only used the Quinicrine, but I always use it with copper. I that combination, it works very fast and will clear visable paracites in a day but the fish must be left in for 10 days.
I would use the regular dose of copper along with 5 MG/gal of the chloroquine.
I am not sure of the dosages of the other two medications.

 

[b0bab0ey]

OK I've started to lower the copper level. The tang hasn't eaten anything in a week and yesterday I noticed she started laying on her side. I think the sponge is finally seeded with sufficient bacteria because I haven't had any ammonia problems lately. I did a 20% WC and didn't add any copper to the replacement water. My copper level is still just above 1.5. This morning before I left the house the tang ate nori out of my hand but she's still staying in one corner. If she still looks bad once I get home I'll do anther WC and lower the copper level even further.

She's still twitching her head but not as bad. I've already hit her with 3 rounds of Prazi just in case. Made no difference.

My question is this: She will now spend the next 2 1/2 months in copper free water. The tank is bare bottom, no rock, no sand, only PVC. With nothing else for the Tomites to attach to, shouldn't I expect to see "white spots" back on her at some point in the next 2 1/2 months if she's still infected? Or can it just keep attacking the gills and not the body? Because unless I see white spots on the body I have no way of knowing for sure whether her head twitching is still Crypto related or something else going on with her. See my dilemma?

 

[Paul B]

Copper should kill anything in it's gills that is causing it to twitch. Healthy fish never twitch.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Copper should kill anything in it's gills that is causing it to twitch. Healthy fish never twitch.

This fish is a rescue and she hasn't really been healthy in the 1+ year I've had her. I've even nicknamed her "Typhoid Mary". Which makes me wonder if she still has Crypto in the gills or this is yet something else. She has been in copper since Jan 1 but I can only confirm the 2.0ppm since Jan 11.

I might try Prazi again once all the copper is out. Or I might grow a set & f/w dip her to see if she has Flukes. I just hate to f/w dip her and lose her like that. I've been through a lot with this fish and she's delicate. Unlike any PB Tang I've ever had before.