Culling

[cannon77]

Little bitty sushi rolls!!

 

[duncaholic]

seriusly lionfish. circle of life and all.....

 

[M88A2]

unless you have a flash freezer, wouldn't freezing a fish be a long and painful process?

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

If we are killing a fish, that lacks the complex emotion and feeling we as humans have, does it really matter if it takes a few minutes? Death is death.

Its not like we are torturing them, by slowly pulling off it fins and such.

Freezing them is not as bad as the death many face in our hobby, Chemical burns due to poor water quality, starvation due to our lack of ability to provide proper or enough food. The beating recieved from a tankmate, etc.....

 

[M88A2]

just because they lack complex emotions, which i don't know if there is even prof of this, does not mean they do not feel pain. the animal will probably still suffer the pains that accompany a freezing death. probably more "humane" to take a hammer or nail to the head. the "does it matter question" really varies from person to person. some will care, while others may not. Judging from the OP's second post, i think he is attempting to find a method that has a balance of practicality and humanity.

 

[kduen]

While some of this info might be a little dated here is a run down of some of the options that have been stated here. http://wetwebmedia.com/euthanasia.htm

 

[jenglish]

MS 222 is best,

Clove oil isn't as good but is much easier to get.

Freezing is not considered humane by AVMA http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf (acrobat is messed up on this PC so I can't read this but have read it before. If I misquote something it not out of laziness.)

decapitation should only be used with pithing. Cold blooded animals don't have the same neural response to rapid loss of blood pressure that a mammal does.

CO2 with alka seltzer is considered more humane than freezing.

You can also OD on above mentioned MS 222, TMS, finquel (same stuff). x2 the anesthetic is considered the euthanasia dose. This is a bit pricey but is pretty painless for both you and the fish.

 

[Opcn]

If we are killing a fish, that lacks the complex emotion and feeling we as humans have, does it really matter if it takes a few minutes? Death is death.

I think that many of our fish are as emotionally complex as cats and dogs. If you would be comfortable freezing a kitten or a hamster to death then freezing a wrasse to death is probably alright. I'm honestly more concerned with people confusing out of their sight for not painful than I am with people making a slightly inhumane choice. My favorite choice is the lionfish because it's two birds with one stone.

Freezing them is not as bad as the death many face in our hobby, Chemical burns due to poor water quality, starvation due to our lack of ability to provide proper or enough food. The beating recieved from a tankmate, etc.....

That is very true, also nasty deaths in the wild :/.

 

[Caesra]

I will never get the use of euthanasia and humane in the same context.

Clearly we have established that most people believe euthanasia is not humane.

I know off topic, but I will never understand the use of the word humane to describe something we clearly find to be un-human.

 

[jenglish]

I will never get the use of euthanasia and humane in the same context.

Clearly we have established that most people believe euthanasia is not humane.

I know off topic, but I will never understand the use of the word humane to describe something we clearly find to be un-human.

We have? Maybe some would disagree that culling is the same as euthanizing, but it seems to me that if it were clearly established that euthanizing was inhumane that it would not be taught at vet schools or be used by organizations like a ASPCA.

Is it pleasant? No, well at least not for me. But there are times it is in the best interest of the animal that I believe not euthanizing is inhumane.

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

I think I'd rather fall asleep and die, than chopped up, smashed, or eaten.

Anyone go sport fishing? How do you humanly kill your bait? Or the trophy fish, or the ones your gonna eat?

Looks like some very good options were posted above.
I would certianly consider those options in the future. Plus I won't have to scrape fish guts off the floor.

 

[Caesra]

But there are times it is in the best interest of the animal that I believe not euthanizing is inhumane.

I agree culling is necessary, I was just commenting on the irony in the use of the two words. As I said, off topic :fun4:

 

[twiggyb]

I think society accepts it because we're at the top of the food chain. We don't care as long as it's not us to an extent. Some still feel bad for doing so or seeing it, but we still do it. I personally couldn't do it myself. On the other hand I smash bugs and spiders all the time if they're in my house, although some days I feel bad about it and throw them outside. I had an anthias jump our of my tank a few days ago onto the top of my leopard geckos cage and when I noticed it was already dried up. The way the fish looked was painful looking, the mouth and gill flared out gasping for oxygen. I've read that the clove oil works to OD the fish and let it slip away like that.

 

[cynster]

I think I agree with your wife tank for mutants! lol

 

[Opcn]

I think society accepts it because we're at the top of the food chain. We don't care as long as it's not us to an extent.

I disagree, I don't think our place on the food chain has anything to do with it. Right now we are on top, but when humans were first domesticating dogs we were not at the top, lions and tigers and bears thoughts us delicious. Had people not been willing to cull then we never would have made it to the top of the food chain. In the end it's the profits from the sturdy animals that keep the food coming in and keep the breeding process going. If you have to take care of a bunch of sickly animals that cannot profitably be bred or sold then you cut into the capital that finances the whole operation. When you cut into that capital you reduce the number of feasible captive breeding operations and increase proportionally the number of fish caught in the wild. In essence you've traded discomfort at culling for the capture of wild animals (that results in a fair number of animal deaths) and made that same error of mistaking pain that is out of your sight for lack of pain.

 

[eodmike]

Just curious but wouldn't baby fish make good additions to homemade fish food? I know that if you weren't pulling the eggs they would get eaten when hatched. They are now still made of the same stuff. So maybe kill them then blender and add to homemade food?

 

[duncaholic]

IMHO there is no pleasant way to cull. For me keeping things in perspective is the most important thing.

Is letting newly hatched larvae get eaten or chopped up in pumps and power heads any different than culling/killing juvenile fish that don't measure up to breed standards? IDK

I think it is human nature to be more accepting of passive killing. In other words, the sight of nicely packaged meat/seafood at the grocery store does not violate most people's delicate sensibilities, but requires industrial scale killing which, if witnessed by the same consumers, would affect most of them deeply. If they had to participate, it would scar some of them for life. But even without our direct involvement, farm animals and wild caught food animals die because we(most of us anyway) eat them. I know ornamental fish don't seem to relate, but that grade A+ Picasso at the LFS required a lot of culling/killing.

I think the most interesting way I've ever heard it stated was a guy who told me "if you want to save a cow...eat a cheeseburger"

Bottom line for me is culling sucks. I hate it. it's my least favorite part of breedings clowns, but I hate not knowing if the WC specimens that I keep in my DT were responsibly harvested in a sustainable manner even more.

As for the best way to cull, I've already stated that I'm a chain of life...let something else eat them kind of guy, but if that option is not available then pithing is my preferred method. a little snip in just the right spot and it's over very quickly.

 

[mrstihl]

Can always just donate them to you favorite lfs for feeder fish. Just think of culling as natural selection.

 

[KrissiIZme]

We need to cull some child molesters and sex offenders!

I think the feeder fish method is best. If that is out of reach, then off with its head.

 

[jeosbo]

IMO, culling sucks, it is the worst part of breeding and I find it difficult to do...but for a deformed fish I feel it is needed. If they look strange but are not deformed I will keep them, but a deformity that causes them difficulty usually means culling at my house.
I FAR prefer feeding to a predator above all other methods. Severing the spinal cord is the only other method I use. As stated above, freezing is not recognized as a "humane" (I'll avoid that discussion for now) method and as such I don't use it.