Cuprisorb for dinoflagellets??

Ah, well, OK. I hadn't thought through the whole food chain. I presumed that dinos were purely photosynthetic since they seem to just sit there and bubble. :D

That said, I've also dosed silicate for many years and have never gotten dinos, and I've never heard it reported back as a result of the silicate dosing that I recommend.

Maybe it is a different type of dino than the ones we get as pests. :)

Yeah. That may or may not mean anything, though. I've never had quite a few pests that I see on here, but I bet some could still live in my tank under the right (but unknown) circumstances.

But I don't know if that's it. I'm just guessing. Could really just be diatoms mistaken for dinos. I will try some experiments on my own now, but we shall see. It's just food for thought.
 
I don't believe that iron is an issue. If I used my RO treated well water I'd be inclined to consider this. I've had my purchased RO water tested at the LFS (very reputable, 30+ years in the business) and the TDS reading is consistently <5.0 (my home system yields a TDS of 24...our topsoil is lighter in color than our well water FWIW).

I wish I could say that the dino infestation is kaput. Still present, but definitely receding. I can see how lots of folks bail on this hobby when dinos come a knocking. GHA was easily eliminated. Vallonia was a year-long challenge. Not completely wiped out, but hardly noticeable any more. I'm thinking about sending some dinos to my least favorite political party. I'm assuming that dinoflagellates equate with free speech, given the amount of money I've thrown at them......

ETA: No fuge, no macroalgae. At least none I've purchased.
 
Until someone does a huge study (and that may not do much) I don't think we will be able to narrow anything down. Right now everything we are posting is mostly guess work.

What I do like here is that everyone is working together and posting what has worked for them.

For me Cuprisorb seems to be solving my issue. This is after trying:

Lights out for 3-4 days (tried this multiple times)
Daily Siphoning
Large Water Changes
No Water Changes
Low Nutrients (0 reading on both Phosphate and Nitrate)
Higher Nutrients
Microalgae
H2O2 dosing - 2ml per 10G
High Ph and Alk (8.6ph and 12dkh ALK)


I tried everything above and combined them. The only thing that appeared to work was lights out....but they would always come back once the lights were back on. The only things left for me to try are UV and Ultra Algae X

Now I am running Cuprisorb and siphoning. Right now the dino is very limited, in fact most of it looks like diatom, I only have one small spot where I see slimy/stringy dino. I skipped a water change this week because I am afraid to touch anything in the tank in fear of them making a comeback.
 
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Until someone does a huge study (and that may not do much) I don't think we will be able to narrow anything down.

What I do like here is that everyone is working together and posting what has worked for them.

For me Cuprisorb seems to be solving my issue. This is after trying:

Lights out for 3-4 days (tried this multiple times)
Daily Siphoning
Large Water Changes
No Water Changes
Low Nutrients (0 reading on both Phosphate and Nitrate)
Higher Nutrients
Microalgae
H2O2 dosing - 2ml per 10G
High Ph and Alk (8.6ph and 12dkh ALK)


I tried everything above and combined them. The only thing that appeared to work was lights out....but they would always come back once the lights were back on. The only things left for me to try are UV and Ultra Algae X

Now I am running Cuprisorb and siphoning. Right now the dino is very limited, in fact most of it looks like diatom, I only have one small spot where I see slimy/stringy dino. I skipped a water change this week because I am afraid to touch anything in the tank in fear of them making a comeback.

If you can get a hold of Julians new product give it a try see if it is better...

UV does not work, I had tried.. when I had the issue I had a big fat open wallet because one of the lfs had it really bad and what ever I wanted to help rid of the problem I got.. I had tried UV and ozone...
 
If you can get a hold of Julians new product give it a try see if it is better...

UV does not work, I had tried.. when I had the issue I had a big fat open wallet because one of the lfs had it really bad and what ever I wanted to help rid of the problem I got.. I had tried UV and ozone...

Saying UV does not work is not a fact. I have talked with a few people that swear it works. I never tried because I didn't want to throw $300-500 on something that may or may not work.

The theory I have heard is UV will kill dino if you do a 3-5 day lights out while running UV. The idea here is the dino will move out of the sand/rock and go into the water column. The UV will then take care of them.
 
Saying UV does not work is not a fact. I have talked with a few people that swear it works. I never tried because I didn't want to throw $300-500 on something that may or may not work.

The theory I have heard is UV will kill dino if you do a 3-5 day lights out while running UV. The idea here is the dino will move out of the sand/rock and go into the water column. The UV will then take care of them.

UV can only kill whats in the water column.. What happens to the ones it kills? They become food for more dinos.. If you have them you know how fast they multiply and if the source of their food is not removed or limited you cant kill them.. One cell could be millions in no time.. Dino are motile and sure it will kill the ones in the water column or any that get stirred up that's it.. It may slow them down some from multiplying but it aint going to rid you of the problem.. Believe me if it was that easy to get rid of them everyone that had them would be running uv and that would be the end of it.
Its kind of like saying UV will kill all bacteria in the tank.. No it will kill some not all..


Basically you have to remove their source of food or make the condition unfavorable for them..
 
UV can only kill whats in the water column.. What happens to the ones it kills? They become food for more dinos.. If you have them you know how fast they multiply and if the source of their food is not removed or limited you cant kill them.. One cell could be millions in no time.. Dino are motile and sure it will kill the ones in the water column or any that get stirred up that's it.. It may slow them down some from multiplying but it aint going to rid you of the problem.. Believe me if it was that easy to get rid of them everyone that had them would be running uv and that would be the end of it.
Its kind of like saying UV will kill all bacteria in the tank.. No it will kill some not all..


Basically you have to remove their source of food or make the condition unfavorable for them..

Understood. What I am trying to say is that we should not say UV does not work. The people that claim it works are probably killing off enough dino with UV to where something else is outcompeting it. If anything I think there is a possibility it can help when combined with other techniques

This is all speculation on my part. That is why this stuff is so hard to deal with. Give me HA, Cyano or Bryopsis anyday, all of these have proven methods of eradication.
 
Basically you have to remove their source of food or make the condition unfavorable for them..

On this I wanted to get your input. We all know some Nitrate and Phosphate are a source of food for them. However many people have shown that they will still occur when running Nitrate and Phosphate at near 0 levels. There is no way to get your reef tank 100% sterile of these without killing everything else in your tank. So my thinking here (and I know others say this) is that dino need very minimal Nitrate and Phosphate to survive.

I am thinking mine did so well in my tank because I had elevated Iron or some other trace element. Once I put the cuprisorb in they have slowly started to die off.

So my question is; What is the food source? Do trace elements and Light count? If you have 0 reading nitrate and 0 reading of phosphate (very loose number here because we know our Hanna meters and other test kit are only so accurate)
 
So my thinking here (and I know others say this) is that dino need very minimal Nitrate and Phosphate to survive.

I am thinking mine did so well in my tank because I had elevated Iron or some other trace element. Once I put the cuprisorb in they have slowly started to die off.

So my question is; What is the food source? Do trace elements and Light count? If you have 0 reading nitrate and 0 reading of phosphate (very loose number here because we know our Hanna meters and other test kit are only so accurate)

Like all living creatures, they must get nitrogen and phosphorous somehow. Yes, they likely can get it at levels you cannot detect. They may also consume forms that you are not measuring, such as ammonia and maybe organic forms of N and P.
 
On this I wanted to get your input. We all know some Nitrate and Phosphate are a source of food for them. However many people have shown that they will still occur when running Nitrate and Phosphate at near 0 levels. There is no way to get your reef tank 100% sterile of these without killing everything else in your tank. So my thinking here (and I know others say this) is that dino need very minimal Nitrate and Phosphate to survive.

I am thinking mine did so well in my tank because I had elevated Iron or some other trace element. Once I put the cuprisorb in they have slowly started to die off.

So my question is; What is the food source? Do trace elements and Light count? If you have 0 reading nitrate and 0 reading of phosphate (very loose number here because we know our Hanna meters and other test kit are only so accurate)

Like Randy says.. All living things need a nitrogen, carbon and phosphate to survive. Some need other things like plants need light, humans need water, etc. Finding that one other thing is the trick.. Iron I believe is focused on because algae require it.

Correct it seems when phosphate is lower dinos really take off. The cleaner my tank got the more problems I had. I think that is the problem most people feel this is the way to get rid of Dino's because that is how you get rid of other algae and that is what makes this so frustrating..

I have never seen them in a ULNS system either though so there may be a point where they slow allot too...
 
Wow, I've got The Esteemed Randy chiming in on my thread! I'm truly honored. Honestly.

What a scourge dinos can be. I'd bad-mouth them forever if I didn't know that they are responsible for our atmosphere.

If I were younger I'd love to conduct research into how these suckas end up in our glass boxes: introduced by some vector, or the result of chemical mayhem. I'm betting on the latter.

Thanks to all participating here. I'm gracious for the input from some reefing giants!
 
I don't think silicate increases dinofalgellates. Dinos don't have a silicate exoskeleton ;just cell walls made of celulose; Iron or some other minor or trace element or monomer might. Ammonium might be another candidate. Competition from organisms like bacteria, diatoms and macro algae might be helpful.
 
Thanks ;interesting product. It would be helpful if it showed a color to help figure the particualr metal which might be high but it might not show much color until levels are quite high. I'll have to look into it .
 
I don't think silicate increases dinofalgellates. Dinos don't have a silicate exoskeleton ;just cell walls made of celulose; Iron or some other minor or trace element or monomer might. Ammonium might be another candidate. Competition from organisms like bacteria, diatoms and macro algae might be helpful.

We're discussing in the previous page that the correlation may be an indirect one.
 
We're discussing in the previous page that the correlation may be an indirect one.

I know food chain and that may be possible at some point, perhaps as diatoms die off.,they might provide a source of organic carbon or N and P and perhaps iron if that matters . Some dinoflagellalte species are mixotrophic; some are heavily heterotrophic; many are primarily photosynthetc. However, the studies I've read suggest more diatoms is accompanied by less dinoflagellaltes and vice versa .

This is one of my posts from the other thread running on dinos:


The cell wall for dinofalgellates is organic and mostly cellulose as best as I can ascertain not silicate. Some species are referred to as armored with thick cellulose areas called theca but not an exoskeleton. A few studies suggest they dominate and diatoms wane when silicate is reduced by the later.

Here are some links that may be of interest:

http://oceandatacenter.ucsc.edu/PhytoGallery/dinos%20vs%20diatoms.html

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v2/n4/full/nclimate1388.html?WT.ec_id=NCLIMATE-201204

Searches on dinoflagellates in the sea and dinofalgellate and diatom dominance silica will give more to consider.

Seems to me since diatoms and dinoflagellates are simialr eukaryotic species, they would compete for the same nutrients and elements with diatoms dominating when silca was abundant, while dinofalgelates need more cellulose. I don't think dinofalgellates need diatoms to sequester nutreints and trace elements for them or to produce organic C for them;dinos shuld beable to get them on their own if they are in the water.







 
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Seems to me since diatoms and dinoflagellates are simialr eukaryotic species, they would compete for the same nutrients and elements with diatoms dominating when silca was abundant, while dinofalgelates need more cellulose. I don't think dinofalgellates need diatoms to sequester nutreints and trace elements for them or to produce organic C for them;dinos shuld beable to get them on their own if they are in the water.

That competition from diatoms keeps dinos in check is reasonable and quite likely, and I think most of us are aware of it. It's why many people in these dino threads are now experimenting with dosing water glass in their tanks.

But I have not heard of any positive results back from silicate dosing yet. It could be too early. We shall see.

Still, it behooves us to consider alternative theories. If you look at the graph of North Atlantic phytoplankton populations, you'll see that mixotrophic dinos peak shortly after diatoms are at maximum abundance and well before diatoms are gone. They are just behind the curve. And, while the exhausting of silicates corresponds to a competitive advantage for dinos, dinos really only drop off the map shortly after diatoms have done so. In other words, these dinos do not really die off when diatoms are present. They really only die off when ALL primary and secondary food sources are gone and their decline follows somewhat behind the disappearance of both diatoms AND measured nutrients.

To be honest, I do not even know what kind of dinos are common in reefs tanks or precisely what these common species eat. I've been asking that question for years. So I couldn't tell you how worthwhile this is to even consider.

The reason I am willing to consider alternative theories at this point is just the number of reefers who report experiences related to silicates. Posters are extremely dismissive of them so far -- "Ah, they must be confusing diatoms with dinos". But are they? According to Pants, reefers have been surprisingly competent so far at diagnosing their own dinos. And isn't that just a bit unfair to immediately jump to that conclusion? The number of reports is quite high. Do diatoms also stretch toward the light and bubble up? If so, maybe it really is misdiagnosis on a large scale.

I would love nothing more, though, than to be able to beat dinos by dosing silica and generating a competitor diatom population. That would be, in all honestly, COMPLETELY AWESOME.

But I suspect the truth could also be more complicated. I am starting to wonder if dinos don't have multiple food sources, some of which gradually go away in a reef tank and some of which we also can add on our own. So, the reason they may be tricky is that a single strategy (i.e., heavy nitrate/phosphate reduction) works much more slowly. Multiple energy sources may have to be contained, perhaps.

...

But I have obtained a giant bottle of water glass and some silica-related testing kits. I'm going to try some experiments shortly. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 
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