Cyanide article

[dizzy]

Hi Steven,
Let me be the first to say I think you did a good job with the article. I could point to a few things I might not totally agree with, but I don't really have the desire to do so, at this time. I think in addition to warning people about bad retail stores, in fairness you should also mention that many internet companies are not open for public inspection so they may just as bad or worse than poorly kept retail stores. I'm not a fan of either. So anyway keep up the good work.
Mitch Gibbs

 

[Steven Pro]

Re: Cyanide article

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6425554#post6425554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dizzy
I think in addition to warning people about bad retail stores, in fairness you should also mention that many internet companies are not open for public inspection so they may just as bad or worse than poorly kept retail stores.

I agree with you Mitch. I don't quite understand buying livestock as a hobbyist sight unseen. I much prefer to evaluate my purchases with my own eyes.

 

[dizzy]

Steven,
First I want to state that I am firmly in the camp that believes cyanide is very bad. However I would also like to add that we were discussing cyanide and net caught on rdo a while back. We were talking about how net caught fish are more likely to injure themselves fighting and thrashing around to get away than an anesthetized fish. When considering the effects of stress and related mortality, one should at least ponder the thought, that a drugged fish might be able to better handle the rigors of post capture poor handling, somewhat better than a fully alert and freightened fish. While cyanide is probably one of the poorer choices, a less harmful anesthetic might be useful. I believe Borneman (Coralmania) suggested clove oil as one possibility, but Rubec relied on rdo that Cervino's research indicated that clove oil may damage corals as well. Clearly more research is needed on this subject. So the ironic possibilty is that cyanide may actually kill many fish and save some others as well. The real tragedy is the damage it does to the coral habitat.
Mitch

 

[Steven Pro]

You may have a point, but at the same time I am thinking of how people capture other animals. That idiot that wrestles alligators and crocodiles on TV has repeated numerous times that drugs are more dangerous than tackling those poor creatures. I don't know if he is full it or not, but either way finding a good anaesthetic would require a great deal of research in finding out what is safe for fishes, does no collateral damage, and can be delivered in a consistent manner out in the ocean. It is this last point which strikes me as the most problematic.

 

[dizzy]

Who would like to go into surgery with a team of bouncers to hold them down while the doctors cut on them? The answer may lie in applying the anesthetic after capture with nets.
Mitch

 

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6428788#post6428788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dizzy
Who would like to go into surgery with a team of bouncers to hold them down while the doctors cut on them?

I don't know if this analogy is apt. A better one might be would you rather be bound or sedated when kidnapped, although that is much too anthropomorphic for my tastes.

 

[BrianPlankis]

Steven,

Great article! It was kind of weird reading it, because it was like a mirror of my thoughts. Well almost, personally I think cyanide is about one of the most evil practices in this hobby and I wish wholesalers would refuse to buy from suppliers that are known to use cyanide or even require proof of no cyanide use. Unfortunately there is still demand from that average tank keeper because they make impulse purchases. I hope this changes in the near future! But I digress, excellent job saying what you feel without being inflamitory.

Do you know of any good book, website or resource that lists how fish are caught? For example, I love the fish Opistognathus aurifrons (Yellow headed jawfish), but so far I have been unable to find much information on how they are captured. webwetmedia mentions they can be induced to leave their burrow, but is that the most common collection method?

A website, book, journal, etc that listed that could be valuable to hobbyists that care.

Brian

 

[Steven Pro]

I don't know of any such resource. There is that Jonklaas book that I referenced in my article, but it seems to be very old. Other than that, just talking to people in the industry might be your best bet. Sitting down at one of the big conferences and chatting with folks like Bob Fenner, Steve Robinson, Morgan Lidster, etc. Seeing how MACNA is going to be in your backyard this summer, I would start there.

 

[dizzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6431821#post6431821 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CirolanidHunter
Steven,

Do you know of any good book, website or resource that lists how fish are caught? For example, I love the fish Opistognathus aurifrons (Yellow headed jawfish), but so far I have been unable to find much information on how they are captured. webwetmedia mentions they can be induced to leave their burrow, but is that the most common collection method?

A website, book, journal, etc that listed that could be valuable to hobbyists that care.

Brian

We have discussed this on another site. Brian most of the yellowheaded jawfish are caught using quinaldine. It is commonly used in Florida where many of these are entering the trade from. I think you can be safe in assuming cyanide is not used. There are other techinques that can be used to coach them out with a tickle stick or something, but apparently most collectors opt for the faster method. It is currently legal IIRC and lots of researchers collect this way.
Mitch

PS
Steven I was thinking about surgery on the crock. What do they do then?

 

[BrianPlankis]

Thanks Mitch and Steven for the responses,

Good to hear cyanide isn't used, I wonder if quinaldine affects their reproductive system? (Since I want to attempt to get a mated pair for trying to breed them). I see Bob Fenner is coming to MACNA this year, I'll see if I can bend his ear on the issue.

Thanks,

Brian

 

[baobao]

Steve,
First, congrats on the nice article.

Is there a way to incorporate prophylactic treatment as part of the quarantine process when receiving new fish?

I read (I think from www.wetwebmedia.com) that Methyl Blue is effective from cynaide or nitrite poisoned fish. Are you familiar with this? Is that why some people do dips in MB when they first get new fish?

 

[Steven Pro]

I recall some people talking about methylene blue being helpful (I believe Nelson Herwig was one of the first), but it is just an unproven theory as far as I know. Since we don't definitively know what impact cyanide has on fish that survive the initial exposure, there is no way on knowing how to treat them.

 

[dizzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6438946#post6438946 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by baobao
Is there a way to incorporate prophylactic treatment as part of the quarantine process when receiving new fish?

Try contacting Elywyn Segrest of Segrest Farms in Tampa. I was down there last year and they have a "red room" to acclimate the fish. It was a little strange being under all the red light, but it was supposed to be more calming to the fish IIRC. They may use other methods as well. They really seemed to be cutting edge. If you ever bought from them it should give you easier access. Or act like you want to buy maybe. I don't know if they add anything to the water or not. Give them a call. Losses = money lost so no one is trying harder to cut loses than the large wholesalers.
Mitch

 

[jmicky41]

As consumers, the best we can do is to purchase fish from locales that are known not to use cyanide. I always avoid the "generic" emperor angel and pay the premium price for the Christmas Islands one. Same thing for hippo tangs, coral beauties, the list goes on and on. When a fish is cheap, with no locale specified, I always stay away. But for the LFS, there isn't much incentive to purchase from better locales - it makes their store more expensive than the one down the road. I used to work at a LFS in high school and always heard: "$49 for a hippo tang; the guy down the street had them for $39 - he said they were net caught." Yeah, but did you ever see a store that said their fish were cyanide caught.

 

[dizzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6439617#post6439617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmicky41
But for the LFS, there isn't much incentive to purchase from better locales - it makes their store more expensive than the one down the road. [/B]

micky there is just as much incentive for a lfs to buy healthier, better handled stock as an online store. In fact the competetion online can be more brutal than local retail. The thing is if you don't turn and burn then you need it to live. That's the incentive if you don't sell it right away you need for it to live until you do. Do you see that?
Mitch

 

[just dave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6439617#post6439617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmicky41
Yeah, but did you ever see a store that said their fish were cyanide caught.

The cynic that I've become thinks that saying Net Caught is not the same as saying cyanide free.

 

[cortez marine]

The yellowheads are caught with quin mixed with isoprophyl alcohol because the collectors in the keys, and Haiti have never learned the simple technique of catching them with trout hooks and 2 1/2 foot underwater fishing poles.
This is how we catch the bluespot jawfish in Baja and can get up to 150 a day.
Steve

 

[cortez marine]

All the countries of the world producing netcaught fishes as a matter of routine certainly don't need a drug to "keep the fish calm".
Hawaii, Tonga, Australia, Vanuatu, Solomons, Marshalls, Mexico etc. never felt the need to use drugs to produce superior livestock,
Wait a minute...they already do produce superior livestock.
Dope is cost ineffective and stresses the fish too much....which is why it is disdained for professional use.
Steve

 

[Fred_J]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6451350#post6451350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
All the countries of the world producing netcaught fishes as a matter of routine certainly don't need a drug to "keep the fish calm".
Hawaii, Tonga, Australia, Vanuatu, Solomons, Marshalls, Mexico etc. never felt the need to use drugs to produce superior livestock,
Wait a minute...they already do produce superior livestock.
Dope is cost ineffective and stresses the fish too much....which is why it is disdained for professional use.
Steve

Are you saying these are the safe non-cyanide locations. I've been trying to get a list of the "hopefully" non-cyanide using countries for some time.

Thanks
Fred

 

[Fred_J]

Steven, Very good article. I started keeping marine fish since the early seventies. Your article has taught me a lot about what I thought I already knew. The advice on how to select a WC fish is the oppisite of anything I've read but makes perfect sense.
Thank you for such a timely and well thought out article.
Fred