Darnit! lost two in quarantine.

[Ted_C]

Just sharing my expereience and recording my observations - not looking for advice (yet).

Lost my Pink margin fairy wrasse and my tomini tang in my 29 gallon biocube quarantine last night. Same ole story - they fed fine last night and this morning both were gone (they were the only inhabitants in the 29 gallon). I noticed the tomini was breathing fast last night around lights out but didn't pay it alot of mind since I have no expereience with tangs and whether it was normal behavoir or a sign of distress.

The biocube was previosly used to quarantine a bellus angel and 4 neon goby. Prazipro has been added 3 times in total to the tank (over the course of two months) and copper was added once for the last quarantine. In between that time and the addition of the new fish - I ran carbon in the filter basket for a week.

Some general parameters of the biocube: 29 gallon, runing as many ceramic biomedia balls in the refugium area as I can fit. Been running since March I beleive. PVC pipe is used in the display for hiding. I have a spectrapure autotopoff. I control and monitor everything with a neptune apex lite, one mp10 running between 80% to 85% power with night mode running @ 40%, one ecotech radion for lighting. I run the biocube without the glass cover to maximize oxygen exchange. The return to the display has one of those whirlybird flow diverters so that the surface is agitated every time it spins around.

Some general observations of the biocube:
I noticed when the bellus was in the tank, she loved to gulp air. I thought she might just be playing but it may also mean I have a dissolved oxygen problem in the tank.
The biocube has always grown algae on the glass so I do have nitrates / nitrates. I didn't really test it though. I no longer own an ammonia test kit. However, I like to think I could detect ammonia just through the smell of the tank. Our noses can detect scents much more accutely than a test kit. A test kit would only quantify it for us.
After adding the ecotech radion light over 2 months ago - the temp is stable at 78 degrees. The pH used to be stable - fluctating between 7.8 and 8.1 throughout the day (see the attached graph).

Timeline:
6/15: Bought the fish from Faois. Acclimated via drip for an hour and introduced them.
6/15 - 6/22
Fed them the entire week - small shot of brine in the morning (maybe 10-15 total brine in the tank - probably less than that), 1 small autofeed of pellets/Flake around noon, 1 small shot of mysis in the evening (again no more than 10-15 mysis - again - probably less than that). I also rubber banded some nori to a rock for the tang to munch on.
During this time too - I noticed how big the poops were the tomini was taking. holy cow! it was like a quarter inch in diameter and about an inch long. He musta been proud haha.
6/22:

• 5 gallon water change (with Red Sea Coral pro).
• Replaced the filter in the media basket - this may have been my downfall.
• Removed the carbon from the media basket
• Dosed 7 ml of Prazi Pro

between 6/23 and 6/24 when I would replace the nori on the rock, I noticed the rock did smell of ammonia. I think this may not be the best idea and should probably stick to feeding nori on a clip or screen instead to allow water flow to penetrate it.

6/24: after re-aquascaping my display to support the addition of a piece of rock from the sump - I took some of the macro algae from that rock and put it on a clip in the quarantine. It may have contained pods and a few Strombus grazers. but it was a small piece.

6/25 Business as usual

6/26 morning - they were dead.

So my possible causes:
a severe drop in dissolved oxygen
An ammonia build up that I didn't detect
The death of one of the fish (especially the big tang) may have spiked the ammonia - causing the other fish to kick the bucket.

I did replace the filter that I have had running in the biocube for these past 4 months. I beleive this filter was covered in the bacteria that was keeping my tank stable. When i removed it, I lost the fish. The ceramic biomedia balls also helped with the stability of the tank but in a lesser degree. I think the tang might have been too much to handle for the 29 gallon biocube.

As you can see from the below pH measurements over the last 7 days - I had a problem I didn't know about. pH is currently 7.1 - much too low. Whether this is from Ammonia / Nitric Acid / low dissolved oxygen - this is what caused the fish death.

 

[aguila88psi]

Sorry to hear about your loss, I have a salifert oxygen test and API ammonia & nitrite tests that you can use if you want to find out what the levels are

 

[BlueCoast]

A trick I picked up when culturing pods and brine was to stick an airline into the tank. If the bubbles cling to the sides and build up, there is too much DOC in the water. When this happens, I usually end up getting some white foam on the side of the container.. like a mini skimmer. Not the most scientific method, but quick and easy for cultures.

Did the water ever get a little cloudy / more white film on glass then expected? I wonder if a small bacteria bloom pushed the O2 down to dangerous levels, possibly spurred by the changing of the filter media?



Time to set an email alert for low ph in the QT tank.

 

[ichthyman]

Sorry for the loss.

However, let me be the first to congratulate you on your observation, record keeping and deductive skills. Way too many hobbyist, even well experienced, would blame the various standby excuses instead of looking for the truth. Even more impressive is the posting of this experience so others may learn.

Thank you sir for being a true hobbyist.:celeb3:

 

[Ted_C]

A trick I picked up when culturing pods and brine was to stick an airline into the tank. If the bubbles cling to the sides and build up, there is too much DOC in the water. When this happens, I usually end up getting some white foam on the side of the container.. like a mini skimmer. Not the most scientific method, but quick and easy for cultures.

Oh - sorry for the misunderstanding - After re-reading what I wrote I can see why you may have thought I was trying to get some pods / grazers into the quarantine. What I was trying to elude to without writing it was maybe I had die off of pods/grazers from the transfer but it would have been insignificant to the overall problem.

Did the water ever get a little cloudy / more white film on glass then expected? I wonder if a small bacteria bloom pushed the O2 down to dangerous levels, possibly spurred by the changing of the filter media?

I have noticed the water go cloudy only after I do my cupramine treatment. I didn't get to that stage before I lost these guys. I was only in the first 4 days of my prasipro treatment. I do one week just water and calming down, one week prasipro, then two to four weeks of cupramine (with an additional prasipro alongside cupramine in the third week).

Prewater change - nope - not really cloudy - had to clean up the algae though and sometimes its hard to see cloudy water through the algae on the glass.

Post water change - the water was crystal clear.

Your absoluetly right on the email alerts. That may have saved these guys. I dropped the Apex display into a bucket of water change a few weeks ago and have only been using my phone to control the biocube. I check my other apex on the main tank twice a day for correct parameters (salinity, pH and temp). So its either email alerts or buy a new display module.

Thanks for the kind words John - I appreciate it.

 

[Ted_C]

Ok here's a question - should I just start the biocube over with new fresh saltwater? Let it cycle for a few months before trying this again or just do multiple 5 gallon water changes to get the tank back under control?

The only loss I have now is time - which I can live with. The biocube was only being used as a quarantine so nothing else is living in there.

Regardless, I think I'm going to run through another cycle as the bacteria builds up on that new filter media I used on the basket (especially if it were an ammonia problem and not a dissolved oxygen problem). That's just a sheet of Marineland Filter (the thick Blue sided/White sided stuff) that I cut to size and rubber band to the basket.

 

[BlueCoast]

Ted, I was getting at overall water quality, not strictly for pods(that was just my example). The fish gods have not been kind to you lately .

I was asking about the cloudiness due to you mentioning you removed the ceramic media. If you removed it all, it could potentially have a large enough impact on your QT's biological filtering to cause some swings. It does not really sound like this was the case though, a hint of cloudy or some film would not concern me much either.

Mflamb used to be huge on QT, I still have a document from one of his education topics. I think he left a bio-wheel in his main tank to use in the QT so it had a good population of bacteria to get things going.

When i use to run freshwater the general rule for HOB filters was to replace carbon or floss, but not both, this helped keep the bacteria populations more stable.

I would start fresh on the 29, what's 30 gal of SW cost for some extra peace of mind?

If you did six 5 gal changes, you are at the same amount of SW, but still have 9.8gallons of "old water" in the QT.

 

[Ted_C]

Ahh I see. Thanks Blue. Can I call you Blue? Your my Boy Blue! (from old school haha).

I left the ceramic biomedia in and actually haven't ever disturbed it. All I removed was the Marineland floss filter and replaced it. This is the ceramic stuff I'm using in the biocube:
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/marinepure-ceramic-biomedia-1-1-2-spheres.html

For QT - I always liked this advice given from advanced aquarist:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/quarantining-marine-fish-made-simple

I ran this for alot of my fish in a 10 gallon with a HOB filter. I never really liked it though. I never thought the HOB had enough surface area to support a good strong quantity of bacteria for processing. With the 10 gallon - I frequently had cloudy water.

True about the fish gods - but its all learning expereinces.
Since December:
Lost three chromis and one Bangaii in quarantine (in that little 10 gallon) - The bangaii got stressed and had the white stringy poop after a day or two in the box. The chromis were in a group of 7 so those were pretty explainable (White stringy poop and stress happens with Bangaii when you have two of the same sex in two small a tank and chromis will kill each other off). These were my only quarantine losses before this event today.

Lost a clown to the overflow/return pump. Learned to cover those overflow pipes with gutter guard.

The McCosker in the main display taught me to keep my hands out of the tank when the lights first come on. musta scared him into a crevice he couldn't get back out of.

Then these two.

I've got alot of success (or is it luck? probably). One Bangaii, 4 chromis, 1 helfrichi, 2 designer clowns , 3 skunk cleaner shrimp, 4 neon gobies, 1 bellus angel and now a huge copperband butterfly along with three reproducing turbo snails, a reproducing population of stomatella snails, a reporducing population of strombus grazers, 5 micro hermits from IPSF

On a coral side - I've got 27 frags of SPS that are thriving. Roger's blue enchinata kicked the bucket this week in the main display. The other LPS I have are also still surviving but unhappy in a ULNS.

 

[Ted_C]

Here's a Dilemma I have noticed. I took out both pieces of macro algae I had in the biocube - the nori taped to a rock and the red macro algae on a clip that was growing on my live rock in the main display sump.

Both really stunk of ammonia. However, the water in the biocube also doesn't have this smell. None of the biocube compartments have this smell either.

The macro algae I have in the main tank (i.e. the source) doesn't have this same smell.

Could it be that a lack of oxygen would speed up decomposition of Macro Algae?

I can see through goolge searches that low oxygen contributes to algae growth but not anythign about decomposition and conversion to ammonia.

 

[BlueCoast]

Both really stunk of ammonia. However, the water in the biocube also doesn't have this smell. None of the biocube compartments have this smell either.



Could it be that a lack of oxygen would speed up decomposition of Macro Algae?

I can see through goolge searches that low oxygen contributes to algae growth but not anythign about decomposition and conversion to ammonia.

I have not read anything about low oxygen levels being detrimental to algae. If I had to guess, I would think the deceased fish would have a larger impact than the low O2.(pure guess)

I didn't mention testing the water since it would be hard to isolate any one cause after the fact since many things would have changed.


Rises in Ph can increase ammonia toxicity, but your PH was dropping... You did a water change a few days before, this could raise low PH, but I would have expected issues much quicker if this did indeed have a role in ammonia toxicity.

Props for the documentation, it always helps to have a record of what's been done. The best we can do is make changes to our process to help prevent any future heartbreaks.

I think we can attribute a lot of your "luck" to good research and planning on your part, and taking action when you see that something needs fixin.

 

[Ted_C]

I think I may have the answer and had an Aha! moment! I've been sitting here trying to figure out why the pH of the aquarium eventually dropped to 7.1 so soon after a 17% water change.

When I first started (January 2013?), I showed John at FAOIS my pH graphs and they were running a bit low with no livestock just coming out of cycle. He mentioned how CO2 in the house (without exchange of fresh air) could drive the pH lower. I kept my window behind the aquarium cracked and put my skimmer air inlet into the window for the main display and it helped (a bit but not alot). I also have 4 Case fans on the back of the sump running right near the cracked window to help with air exchange.

Come to today - I've had alkalinity problems in my main aquarium since I first started testing - even after keeping a window cracked through all of this heat. No matter how much two part I add (up to 225 ml at one point), that alkalinity was always low (at least lower than the numbers I've been chasing). I have a thread here and on another forum asking where my dosing chemcials are going. I think I have an answer which also explains the problem in the biocube.

This Randy Holmes article demonstrates the link between CO2 and alkalnity. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

Seawater contains a mixture of carbonic acid, bicarbonate, and carbonate that are always in equilibrium with each other:
CO2 + H2O -> H2CO3
H2CO3 <--> H+ + HCO3- <--> 2H+ + CO3--

So RHF talks about CO2 and it's mechinisms for lowering pH - but the most important sentence is about "equilibrium." I'm thinking my apartment has excess CO2 which is adding more acidity to my tanks (in the form of Carbonic Acid). It's hard for me to describe why my alkalinity tests would be measuring low if I have an excess of Carbonate in my aquarium. Logically - you would think that the alkalinity test is testing the amount of CO3 in the system. It's not. It's measuring the amount of acid required to drop your sample to a certian pH. The excess acid from carbonic acid immedietly lowers my end point - causing a lower than expected reading of Alkalinity.

So where are my dosing chemicals going and why aren't they contributing to my alkalinity test? http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry

One of these facts is termed The Principle of Conservation of Alkalinity by Pankow ("Aquatic Chemistry Concepts", 1991). He shows mathematically that the total alkalinity of a sample CANNOT be changed by adding or subtracting CO2. Unfortunately, there is an article available on line, which claims otherwise, and encourages people to "lower alkalinity" by adding CO2 in the form of seltzer water. This is simply incorrect.

Forgetting the math for the moment, it is easy to see how this must be the case. If carbonic acid is added to any aqueous sample with a measurable alkalinity, what can happen?

Well, the carbonic acid can release protons by reversing equations 1 and 2:

(5) H2CO3 ==> H+ + HCO3-

(6) HCO3- ==> H+ + CO3--

These protons can go on to reduce alkalinity by combining with something that is in the sample that provides alkalinity (carbonate, bicarbonate, borate, phosphate, etc). However, for every proton that leaves the carbonic acid and reduces alkalinity, a new bicarbonate or carbonate ion is formed that adds to alkalinity, and the net change in total alkalinity is exactly zero. The pH will change, and the speciation of the things contributing to alkalinity will change, but not the total alkalinity.

 

[Ted_C]

<scratching my head> I think I read that last quoted article wrong.
"He shows mathematically that the total alkalinity of a sample CANNOT be changed by adding or subtracting CO2."

 

[BlueCoast]

I always thought it was more the relationship of co2 and ph, not alk. As the co2 dissolves in water it is converted to carbonic acid. The acid drops the ph of the tank.

My solution was to run the skimmer intake off fresh outside air. This made a solid .2 rise in Ph in the tank. I had tried sodalime, but it was not as convenient as the airline. The hose is about 8-10 feet in length and using a dwyer air meter it barely made a measurable difference in total air intake.

Not sure if it is that article, but he details a test on how to check if excessive dissolved co2 is your problem by aerating a cup of tank water outside for awhile and re-measuring ph.

Just skimmed the article, I see where you are coming from. I'm not a chemist, but if the tests are using a ph of 4.5, I don't think a few tenths in the 7-8ph range would make much difference. A ph of 4 vs 7 is a thousand fold difference i think since it is based on a logarithmic scale.

 

[aguila88psi]

he details a test on how to check if excessive dissolved co2 is your problem by aerating a cup of tank water outside for awhile and re-measuring ph.

+1

 

[Ted_C]

Actually I was planning on putting an airstone into the biocube and observing the pH - see what it does.

 

[Ted_C]

Changes from yesterday:
Installed an airstone in the return well.
Put some chaeto into the refugium with a light set to run 24x7
Fired up the AquaticLife Mini Protein Skimmer in the first well.
Added more of the ceramic balls.

my pH shot up over the night by 0.3 to 7.5 (which is closer to the trough period with lights out before this whole fiasco started).

Of course there is no load on the system - no fish no feeding. But I'm starting to feel a little better.

 

[anbosu]

I would consider getting an ammonia badge for it also - they are cheap and work decently

 

[Ted_C]

John and I had a conversation over the weekend. I think I may have the final answer as to what did me in - Thanks John.

Like I stated originally, I had previosly treated the tank with Copper for the bellus angel and the 4 neon goby. I failed to remember the connection between copper and Algae - copper is an algacide. John reminded me of this.

Even though I ran Carbon for two weeks (one week with no fish, one week with fish), this was not long enough to remove the carbon from the system.

That explains why the nori smelled of Ammonia - it was being destroyed by any trace amounts of copper that was still circulating in the tank.

Also there's this article from another RC thread here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19198083:

The Kole tang is sensitive to prolonged copper treatment because copper can harm the important microfauna present in its digestive system. Since members of the family Acanthuridae do not produce a lot of mucus, they are more inclined to fall prey to external parasites like marine ich. In the wild, the Kole tang is known to seek out cleaner wrasses of the genus Labroides to keep skin parasites in check. In the aquarium, it can be a good idea to provide your Kole tang with at least some type of cleaner, e.g. cleaner shrimp or Neon Gobies (Gobiosoma spp.).

So it's not a good idea to treat tangs (can I generalize that from the Kole Tang example above? Probably - seems logical that all tangs would have this problem) with copper for extended periods of time.

 

[aguila88psi]

Interesting, I remember reading somewhere not to quarantine tangs with copper but didn't know why, thanks.

 

[ichthyman]

The Kole tang is sensitive to prolonged copper treatment because copper can harm the important microfauna present in its digestive system. Since members of the family Acanthuridae do not produce a lot of mucus, they are more inclined to fall prey to external parasites like marine ich. In the wild, the Kole tang is known to seek out cleaner wrasses of the genus Labroides to keep skin parasites in check. In the aquarium, it can be a good idea to provide your Kole tang with at least some type of cleaner, e.g. cleaner shrimp or Neon Gobies (Gobiosoma spp.).

Yeah, that whole paragraph makes me cringe. Unreferenced hearsay statement and then ghastly advice for dealing with a disease within a home aquarium. :fish1:"If it's copper or death"¦then give me copper.":fish2: