Deep Sand Bed -- Anatomy & Terminology

JTC,
For me there is no tank I'd own without a DSB or a RDSB (being the preference). Of course it is possible to keep tanks with shallow or BB's, but the benefits are way above not. With what you describe is a dream situation where you get all the benefits of the DSB, but by being remote you don't have to worry about what livestock you add. The only thing I'd change from your description is a refugium. Most refugiums are advertised as denitrifiers and a safe haven for fauna. Truth is far from that claim. To properly handle most situations a refugium needs to be the size of the DT or lager. Yes those little hang-on refugiums will provide safe cover for fauna but with larger refugiums you won't believe the benefit until you witness it. The 75 will help, but if you can go larger, DO IT! I had a nice reef with a few predatory fish in a 200. Shallow sand bed and a 80gal refugium/RDSB. My parameters were always good, no real problems and when I held a flashlight to the tank after dark I could see a bunch of fauna swimming or scurrying throughout the tank. I was given a 300gal trough and put that in line with the 80gal. So now the 80 was simply a sump with heater and skimmer. The 300 became the RSDB and after a few months I noticed new growth almost daily and the tank just really thrived. The biggest shock came when I did a late night flashlight check. There was the thickest soup mix of fauna and every coral was gorging itself on all the natural foods. Having a healthy tank isn't the only sign of a successful system. Having a healthy system that requires almost no maintenance is...

Make sure you post pics...
 
This guy poo-poo's the Deep Sand Bed...

This guy poo-poo's the Deep Sand Bed...

Getting ready to purchase water and sand for my new BioCube 29, and decide after reading these forums (among others), and a few articles and books, that a deep sand bed seems like a great idea.

So, I'm researching live sand, and the critters that you can add to help "stir" the sand, and hrough recommendations on these forums (among others) and even postings on this very thread, I decide to check out Indo-Pacific Sea Farms for a possible source of sand, and the beneficial critters for a DSB.

Then I watch this video link on Indo-Pacific Sea Farms website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLNj-JxYigM&feature=player_profilepage

If you watch the video, at exactly the 2:06 minute mark, the guy hosting the video, Gerald Heslinga, marine biologist, and founder of the company, along with having a pretty impressive resume ( http://www.ipsf.com/about.html#founder ) says, "I'm Gerald from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms, and I'm here to tell you that a shallow sandbed is superior [to a deep sandbed] for many, many reasons..." He goes on to explain why a 1/2" sandbed of coarse crushed aragonite (crushed coral) is better. Basically, he dismisses the DSB as nothing more than a marketing gimmick, a way to sell more sand.

So, not only does Mr. Heslinga advocate a shallow sandbed, but one comprised entirely of coarse crushed coral, which from my understanding, you are not supposed to do.

What gives? I'm confused. :confused:
 
Should I even bother with a refugium in my BioCube 29?

Should I even bother with a refugium in my BioCube 29?

EdKruzel said:
JTC,
To properly handle most situations a refugium needs to be the size of the DT or lager. Yes those little hang-on refugiums will provide safe cover for fauna but with larger refugiums you won't believe the benefit until you witness it. The 75 will help, but if you can go larger, DO IT!
Click to expand...

Is a small refugium in the back of my nano reef tank (BioCune 29) going to be all that beneficial? Should I not even bother?

Or, do the parameters for success change for a nano tank?
 
dahogs said:
Getting ready to purchase water and sand for my new BioCube 29, and decide after reading these forums (among others), and a few articles and books, that a deep sand bed seems like a great idea.

So, I'm researching live sand, and the critters that you can add to help "stir" the sand, and hrough recommendations on these forums (among others) and even postings on this very thread, I decide to check out Indo-Pacific Sea Farms for a possible source of sand, and the beneficial critters for a DSB.

Then I watch this video link on Indo-Pacific Sea Farms website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLNj-JxYigM&feature=player_profilepage

If you watch the video, at exactly the 2:06 minute mark, the guy hosting the video, Gerald Heslinga, marine biologist, and founder of the company, along with having a pretty impressive resume ( http://www.ipsf.com/about.html#founder ) says, "I'm Gerald from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms, and I'm here to tell you that a shallow sandbed is superior [to a deep sandbed] for many, many reasons..." He goes on to explain why a 1/2" sandbed of coarse crushed aragonite (crushed coral) is better. Basically, he dismisses the DSB as nothing more than a marketing gimmick, a way to sell more sand.

So, not only does Mr. Heslinga advocate a shallow sandbed, but one comprised entirely of coarse crushed coral, which from my understanding, you are not supposed to do.

What gives? I'm confused. :confused:
Click to expand...

hi DA, I got no pHD, no "Expert" credentials and no "cyber credentials" other than having owned SW tanks since 1975, reef tanks since the 80's and a internet troll since Compuserve....

So if I don't say anything here on RC that makes sence you can take the following to bank:

I can unequivocally state: if one expert says "This" works another "Expert" will say no it doesn't but "that" works instead....

...and invariably all it takes is for some "cyber-expert" and his minions to back one way or the other and everyone else who advocates the alternate method (or product?) is a moron or dummy...

shoot: BOTH ways work...

no matter what someone always gallops in and swears ulimate failure but will never bother to mention the slacking of maintenece or over feeding or over stocking but instead blames a methodology....

sure a pristine Barebottom tank with corals propped up on egg crate is cleaner/easier but so is a tank with dead bleach white corals,,,,

personally I think a shallow barebottom is more foolproof but uglier....
...a shallow sand bed require more maintenece but is less risky only because folks with them monitor the tank more....
..ask me a DSB is easier over the long term but can be a ticking sulphuric time bomb

....no matter what method you choose it all about getting a routine down and monitoring your water...if you are unsure, go with a Barebottom tank (or nearly so with egg crate and a lil sand), use some type of phosphate strategy (GFO, pellets, water changes)....keep the lil bit of gravel clean and you won't have issues
 
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dahogs said:
Is a small refugium in the back of my nano reef tank (BioCune 29) going to be all that beneficial? Should I not even bother?

Or, do the parameters for success change for a nano tank?
Click to expand...

For a nano it's a pretty good idea, BUT don't use it if its just for denitrification because it won't be enough. It will be exactly what it's named, a refugium. In small tanks it's hard not to purchase a fish that won't depend on pods for their diet. As an example a Six Line Wrasse would decimate your pods and worms in a month or less. With a refugium some of your fauna will be protected and be able to breed and somewhat replenish the main system.

In a larger tank the use of rock, mere space and/or a piece of pvc with small drilled holes and some crushed coral will act as the refugium.

I certainly agree with Doc that for every "expert" another "expert" will dispute. I know that there are far more natural benefits to running a DSB over a shallow or BB tank and in the long run a DSB is even less maintenance. The major issue with a DSB is the discipline. If you're running a DSB in the main system you highly limit the types of fish and crawling inverts you can place in the tank. You also need to limit the amount of rock you have touching the surface of the sand. A third but equally important concern is having enough current but still maintaining the bed without creating sand storms or drifts. Last and not least is patience. You will be most successful in any system by allowing the tank to mature before adding the prized display items/livestock. If I can't run a DSB due to the livestock I want and can't run a RDSB, I'd have to go shallow sand or BB. A thin layer of crushed coral is a maintenance nightmare and a great invitation to collect debris.

I've used IPSF in the past, but have since taken them off my list of vendors. I did receive everything I ordered alive and well but I also received a ton of flatworms and aptasia. I was lucky that being a new tank I wasn't ready to put the items in and they went in a holding tank (something you should do anyway). I called IPSF and told them what I received, I remained polite, I didn't ask for a refund, I explained that I thought they filtered and held items before shipping and that there may be an issue. In a very rude tone I was told, "œHey you got s*#t from the ocean, what did you expect". Again let me say that the pods, snails & worms were all excellent, but there are too many other quality establishments to put up with rude service. Maybe you'll have better luck and maybe they've long since fired that employee; that was just my experience.
 
I have a DSB made of 3-4" of miracle mud up for about 8 months now. Its in the bottom of my fuge, only about 11.5x14". I had some LR on top of the MM but decided to move that in too the DT for more water contact with the MUD. A few bristle worms have made a home in my fuge, should I add any thing to it? Move a couple snails down there or hermits?
 
EdKruzel said:
For a nano it's a pretty good idea, BUT don't use it if its just for denitrification because it won't be enough. It will be exactly what it's named, a refugium. In small tanks it’s hard not to purchase a fish that won't depend on pods for their diet. As an example a Six Line Wrasse would decimate your pods and worms in a month or less. With a refugium some of your fauna will be protected and be able to breed and somewhat replenish the main system.

In a larger tank the use of rock, mere space and/or a piece of pvc with small drilled holes and some crushed coral will act as the refugium.

I certainly agree with Doc that for every "expert" another "expert" will dispute. I know that there are far more natural benefits to running a DSB over a shallow or BB tank and in the long run a DSB is even less maintenance. The major issue with a DSB is the discipline. If you’re running a DSB in the main system you highly limit the types of fish and crawling inverts you can place in the tank. You also need to limit the amount of rock you have touching the surface of the sand. A third but equally important concern is having enough current but still maintaining the bed without creating sand storms or drifts. Last and not least is patience. You will be most successful in any system by allowing the tank to mature before adding the prized display items/livestock. If I can’t run a DSB due to the livestock I want and can’t run a RDSB, I’d have to go shallow sand or BB. A thin layer of crushed coral is a maintenance nightmare and a great invitation to collect debris.

I’ve used IPSF in the past, but have since taken them off my list of vendors. I did receive everything I ordered alive and well but I also received a ton of flatworms and aptasia. I was lucky that being a new tank I wasn’t ready to put the items in and they went in a holding tank (something you should do anyway). I called IPSF and told them what I received, I remained polite, I didn’t ask for a refund, I explained that I thought they filtered and held items before shipping and that there may be an issue. In a very rude tone I was told, “Hey you got s*#t from the ocean, what did you expect”. Again let me say that the pods, snails & worms were all excellent, but there are too many other quality establishments to put up with rude service. Maybe you’ll have better luck and maybe they’ve long since fired that employee; that was just my experience.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. With the BioCube 29g, I'll have the Tunze nano skimmer, a media basket that can also be used as a refugium, and two 50w Jagre heaters. If I use the media basket as the fuge, but the fuge isn't very useful for denitrification, where would I put my filter floss, and media bags?

Also, notice that you're in Winchester, well I live in Fairfax, and wanted to know if you've ever taken a trip out to Pacific East Aquaculture on the Eastern shore of Maryland? I was psyched when I saw that they were located relatively close by (not Florida, Hawaii, or California at least), and just might have to do a family overnight trip out there...looks very cool.

Do you know of any other similar places relatively near by that I should go?
 
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Bif,
The worms are a great start, but I would add 2-3 nassarius snails and some pods. Do you keep your fuge dark or is it lit and growing macros?

Hogs,
Nice to know you're in the neighborhood. Going to see Dr Mac is worth the trip, but its not as close or easy to get to as it appears in google maps so its a planned trip for me instead of an opposed sporadic visit. But I guess I don't have to tell you about traffic around here. There are a few good places in Frederick, Md, and I'm going to stop by a place I heard about in Herndon, only about a mile from my office. I'll let you know what I think.

As far as denitrification in a 29, good husbandry skills with regularly scheduled small water changes is all you need.
 
It's light 12 hours opposite of the DT. I will move a couple of nassarius snails down there ASAP. what else can I do? I am growing Cheato in the fuge with the mud bed.
 
EdKruzel said:
Bif,
The worms are a great start, but I would add 2-3 nassarius snails and some pods. Do you keep your fuge dark or is it lit and growing macros?

Hogs,
Nice to know you're in the neighborhood. Going to see Dr Mac is worth the trip, but its not as close or easy to get to as it appears in google maps so its a planned trip for me instead of an opposed sporadic visit. But I guess I don't have to tell you about traffic around here. There are a few good places in Frederick, Md, and I'm going to stop by a place I heard about in Herndon, only about a mile from my office. I'll let you know what I think.

As far as denitrification in a 29, good husbandry skills with regularly scheduled small water changes is all you need.
Click to expand...

Yes, figured that if we went to Dr. Mac's it would be a weekend trip. The place you're going to visit in Herndon wouldn't happen to be Marine Scene, would it? If it is, it's a great store - they've been wonderful with my seven year old. Their equipment prices are pretty competitive with what you'd pay on-line when you take shipping into consideration. Don't know enough about live-stock prices, because I haven't bought any yet, but it seems a bit expensive to me. Knowledgeable staff, but noticed quickly that everyone, even if working for the same store, has differing opinions (not unlike these forums).

Overall though, probably one of the nicest, best stocked marine aquarium shops in DC metro area that I've personally visited. But please, let me know your opinion of them, because I haven't been to a lot of marine aquarium stores, so I don't have a lot in which to compare them.

Let me know what some of your favorite places are, as I'm in the market for some live rock, and sand, and if you have any leads that would be great.

Thanks!
 
biecacka said:
ed, what type of limits do you have with fish for the DSB?
corey
Click to expand...
Wow! That's a loaded question... The easy answer would be all of my favorites. The real answer is anything that disturbs sand such as Valencia sp. gobies and sand sifting stars or any fauna predator which would include almost every wrasse species available. Of course common sense needs to come into play and extensive research into each animal you introduce. Seahorses in a small tank will decimate vital pods but I had a breeding pair in a 200 for over 7yrs. With volume, plenty of rocks and two fuges on the system, there was no noticable lack of pods. I had a nice 29 reef/clam tank going and thriving. I got a little cocky with so many pods, worms and other types of fauna that I added a Sixline; in less than 3 months the sand bed was a waste collector and I eventually tore down the tank. I could barely find evidence of any fauna at that point.

Bif,
I'd leave the fuge lights on 24/7 and add a handful of astrea snails to handle any microalgae.

Hogs,
You got it... I hope to check it out today since they don't open until noon. Dr Mac will definitely have the best rock and largest amount in stock. I'm putting a 58 together but I plan on building my rockwork out of portland cement and crushed coral. I'm going to leave a pocket or two for a piece of LR as well as using LS to seed.
 
All sand sifters, however sand sifters are different from shrimp gobies that burrow. And I misspelled the notorious sifter's genus, Valenciennea.

Gobies like the watchman and highfin will dig a home in the sand and may even disturb the immediate area around their burrow, but are relatively harmless. Sifters like the goldenhead will destroy all your hard-earned work in no time flat. Worse yet is that many will not eat prepared foods and therefore starve once they finish off the fauna. They are great looking fish with a cool personality, but unfortunately are best left in the sea. I know someone will read this and think of their many years of success with an Orange Diamond or Sleeper and that's good, but as responsible reef keepers we have to think of the many that don't make it. There are tons of nice fish that are more than suitable for captivity; a few species even thrive better under our watchful eye than in their native habitat.
 
ed so you suggest a DSB with nothing in the tank to stir the sand, not even the first 1/2 or inch or so?
corey
 
biecacka said:
ed so you suggest a DSB with nothing in the tank to stir the sand, not even the first 1/2 or inch or so?
corey
Click to expand...

Corey,
Unfortunately most vendor listed "sand sifters" are sand bed predators. Movement on the sand needs to be at a near to microscopic level. I do want creatures turning the sand, but the largest of them would be certain snail species such as Queen & Fighting Conchs, Nassarius and Cerith. For the most part you want worms, pods and like creatures turning the sand and cleaning the bits of debris. Atlantic Cucumbers are great for keeping the top layer looking nice. Some of the worst creatures for a DSB are sand sifting gobies, sand sifting stars, many wrasse species, predatory snails like the bumblebee and most hermit crabs that grow beyond a 1/4''. A DSB needs to be teeming with life; if fish or inverts eat that life without a means to replenish, it will become a toxic waste dump.
 
bif24701 said:
Why, would I leave the light on 24/7? I thought that 12, 12 off was best.
Click to expand...

To try and keep this as short as possible, the greatest benefit comes when the alga is under lighted periods. During the hours of dark it may become sexual/reproductive and releases gametes and nutrients back into the water column. Cheato is one of the safer algae but why take the chance?
 
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