Deep sand bed? Lfs says no

Sushi,
Take a look at this experiment performed by Robert Toonen (Ph. D) and Christoper Wee: Feature Article: An Experimental Comparison of Sandbed and Plenum-Based Systems: Part 2: Live Animal Experiments. It's an extensive study regarding the affect of various types of sand bed and their function as nutrient export and control. The bottom line: There is no significant difference between any of them. It really don't matter much.

I'm not arguing for or against DSB just trying to pass on info. A few problems with the study above. Their DSB was only 3" not 4-6 inches. They only ran the experiment for 3 months not 3 years.

...that was debunked a lil while back
Which part? I've upgraded from a 29 - 58 - 75 - 120, for each upgrade, I completely replaced the sand. I never had a cycle consisting of spikes of measurable ammonia or nitrite. I did get a mini diatom bloom each time.

...anymore I'm convinced you can have problems (or not) with sand of any depth
IMHO: An unhealthy sand bed of any size can cause problems. It's easier to keep a 2" sand bed healthy than a deeper one. You don't get a de- nitrification "DSB" until you're in the 4-6 inch range.
 
A sand bed of any depth that is properly maintaned will function well and reduce nitrates. The top 1/2 to 3/4" is the only area that is aerobic.
The bottom 1-1/4" of a 2.5" sand bed is just as anaerobic as an 8" sand bed.
If you keep the sand bed clean either with an appropriate clean up crew or by siphoning you will not have problems.
A deep sand bed that is not kept clean is a ticking time bomb in my opinion.
All equipment in or on a reef tank needs to be maintained in order to function properly and that includes your sand bed. It is the true workhorse of your tank. The bacteria that consume ammonia and nitrite live on every surface in your tank that is exposed to the water. If you could take the top 3/4" of of the surface of every grain of sand and lay them out flat it would cover a huge area, much larger than the bottom of you tank.
This is why I would never set up a bare bottom tank. It greatly reduces the surface area that bacteria can populate.
And below 3/4" the sand becomes anaerobic and provides the environment needed for the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate to thrive.
 
I'm not arguing for or against DSB just trying to pass on info. A few problems with the study above. Their DSB was only 3" not 4-6 inches. They only ran the experiment for 3 months not 3 years.

This is not the only study on sand bed. It's just what I happen to be able to easily find. IIRC, there is another one done by a different researcher and was published in 2007 as a feature article in AFM. The study shows similar results as what Robert and Christoper found: There is no significant advantages or differences. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to obtain the article online so I don't have the detail.

Obviously, it's up to what you want to believe. There are lots of theories and believes in this hobby many of which have never been confirmed or otherwise have data to show against them and yet people continue to believe and circulate them.
 
I agree wholeheartedly.
My post above is not based on any "scientific study", only on my personal experience in over 20 years of reef keeping.
 
Personally I run 2 sandbeds, one deeper (fuge) one shallower (tank), and one supports the other should anything adverse happen to the other. I've twice had to break down my fuge due to pump problems, and though I get it running within 8 hours, the stability of the system is thus unbroken....I do recommend that configuration...not the shallow/deep, which is pure accident, but having more than one if you can.

Secondly, I run nassarius and a conch in both, and burrowing fish in the other. What a snail can do getting to the bottom of it all and cleaning is a lot more delicate than what I might do rummaging around down there.

Thirdly, I use aragonite sand, not silicate sand, and I have no issues at all dropping 2 cups of washed new sand into a 54 gallon with that arrangement. It'll turn green for a bit, then back to white. I don't even spread it: I let the critters do that. I use medium, not fine. I set up this time with fine and hated it: it killed specimens by blowing and walking and was a total pita. I will never go finer than medium grade aragonite.

Pulling that sandbed, again, was done thanks to the sandbed in the fuge---I could take out a couple of cups every few days, and now slowly I'm putting the new medium sand in. No issues, no problems---I just don't hurry things.
 
.....


Which part? I've upgraded from a 29 - 58 - 75 - 120, for each upgrade, I completely replaced the sand. I never had a cycle consisting of spikes of measurable ammonia or nitrite. I did get a mini diatom bloom each time.

the part about silica sand causing diatom blooms

IMHO: An unhealthy sand bed of any size can cause problems. It's easier to keep a 2" sand bed healthy than a deeper one. You don't get a de- nitrification "DSB" until you're in the 4-6 inch range.

indeed like I said; a whole range of depths seem to work, and likewise, a whole range of sand depths seem to fail (or get blamed for it anyway)...
 
IMO (and we've 100's of tanks) DSB's are overated unless your setting up a killer coral tank and have the time and experience to properly maintain them. Right now we have only two tanks with a DSB's, one is a 500 g. with a couple of sharks in it, and one is a 240 g. coral. All the rest are either BB or have a SSB.

I prefer a nice 1 1/2" to 2" sand bed, looks good and is easy to maintain.
 
A shallow sand bed can be mucked up just as fast as a DSB IMO. It's all up to U....

"You know this be true..."
 
That is indeed true, but a shallow sand bed is much easier to keep clean than a deep one. That is why my tanks have no more than 3" of sand bed.:deadhorse:
 
We actually just started a couple of BB tanks and I have to say, pretty cool. They look really clean, they are definately growing on me.
 
it really does not matter what you cover your bottom with as long as it is kept clean. critters do not keep substrates clean, they help in pushing the detritus deeper into the substrate. the only way to really keep a substrate clean is through regular siphoning.

there are two main concerns when deciding what substrate to use. the critter of choice, and the level of maintenance you are able to handle (honestly). if the must have critter needs a substrate, then that part of the decision is done. if not, then the level of maintenance becomes important. the lazier you are the more likely a BB would be more to your liking for long term success. if you do not mind regular maintenance, then any substrate would work. the coarser the substrate the easier it would be to siphon clean on a regular basis. of course the other option is to just replace the substrate on a regular basis when it becomes full of nutrients. some think this is the lazy way, but the costs involved with waiting this long can be troublesome or the horror of having to take everything down to do this is not something people want to think about. hence the reason for all of those after the fact phosphate binding methods.

in other words. at some point someone has to flush the toilet or something is going to stink.

G~
 
there are two main concerns when deciding what substrate to use. the critter of choice, and the level of maintenance you are able to handle (honestly). if the must have critter needs a substrate, then that part of the decision is done. if not, then the level of maintenance becomes important. the lazier you are the more likely a BB would be more to your liking for long term success.

in other words. at some point someone has to flush the toilet or something is going to stink.

G~

In my very limited experience, a sand bed eliminates nitrogen very efficiently. I've started 2 tanks so far, one with a 2" sand bed, the other with just a sprinkling of sand. The first removed nitrates as soon as they were created, the second has green algaes of every type thriving. From what I've read, a lot of people with sand beds never clean them. I'm sold on providing an anaerobic environment for the elimination of nitrogen.
 
for a while, and it still maybe the case on this forum, it was recommended to never touch your substrate.

the shallower the sand bed the sooner the accumulation of nutrients will show its ugly head if not siphoned clean on a regular basis. all the sand does is allow the detritus to hide, become locked up temporarily by settling deeper and deeper into the substrate.

if you had a pet that you kept in a cage/tank, would you never clean the bottom of its cage/tank? why would it be any different for SW pets?

G~
 
Originally Posted by drparker
New sand won't kit start cycle per say. The silica in the sand will kick start a diatom bloom but that will pass.

...that was debunked a lil while back


If by debunked you mean Eric Borneman's poor attempt at understanding silicate chemistry, I'd disagree. Silica sand can release substantial silicate, as I have shown experimentally.

However, I'm not a silicate-phobe. I add some every week to supply sponges and other organisms that need it, and I doubt silica sand helping drive some diatoms when first added is a big concern. :)

On the original topic, my DSB's never performed enough, and I removed them after a few years, preferring other methods, such as organic carbon dosing and growing macroalgae.
 
Yes, the arguments a number of biologists made about silica solubility sounded convincing, but they never actually looked it up or measured it. :D

Things like:

'Play sand is silica, so is glass. Your glass isn't dissolving, so sand cannot release silicate"


Or

"The MSDS for silica sand says it is insoluble, so it cannot dissolve"

The reality is much more complicated.

I discuss it here:


Silica in a Reef Tank
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm


from it:

The Dissolution of Quartz Sand
One of the issues that has been floating around the reef keeping hobby for a long time is the issue of whether “silica” sand actually releases soluble silica or not. It is remarkable that so many people have strong opinions on this issue, and yet so few people have ever bothered to do the easy experiment of measuring it. Many even fall for the trap of concluding that since their glass aquarium is not dissolving, then silica sand must not be either. All of the arguments against soluble silica being released from “silica” sand can be easily refuted, and I have done so in the past, but that is not the point of this article. Still, some background is worthwhile before getting to experimental results.

Silica sand is largely composed of quartz. Quartz has a maximum solubility in pure freshwater of about 180 uM (11 ppm as SiO2), and is somewhat higher in seawater. That value is substantially in excess of the dissolved silica concentrations in any normal part of the ocean (excluding plumes from vents from hot springs and such). So why doesn’t quartz beach sand dissolve? It does, but it does so very slowly. The rate of dissolution of quartz has been studied, and it is very slow. It is the slow dissolution of quartz, not the solubility itself, which allows it to remain on many ocean beaches.

A final comment on quartz sand is that it is known that organic acids can increase the rate of dissolution of quartz by at least a factor of ten. This may be especially applicable in reef tanks, where organic materials may be in abundance, particularly when organisms are living directly on the sand, potentially releasing such acids directly onto the sand surface.

The problem with extrapolating from the known very slow rate of dissolution of quartz to “silica sand” is that it simply is not pure quartz. The dissolution of soluble silica from “quartz sand” (98.5% SiO2) has long been known to exceed the solubility of quartz itself. Take a close look at some commercial “silica” sand. It isn’t even close to being white, which an absolutely pure quartz sand will be. There are all sorts of different colored particulates in it (some are even magnetic and can be picked out with a magnet). Without going into detail on mineralogy, suffice to say that there are many minerals that readily dissolve to release silicate into the water. Such dissolution is why freshwater rivers contain so much silica (typically 150 mM (9 ppm SiO2)). Your sand claims to be 98% quartz? What about that other 2%? Two percent of a 50-pound bag of sand is a pound of “other stuff”.

If you start with true beach sand, and don’t fracture it much, then it is very likely that you will detect little dissolution of silica from it in a few days (although I’ve not tried it), because most of the readily dissolved minerals would have disappeared long ago (or are trapped inside). But commercial play sands are not typically from beaches, and are not collected with any kind of gentleness. They are often mined from sand pits, crushed, screened, and generally treated rather roughly. This serves to break many of the grains, exposing new mineral inclusions that are then primed to dissolve. This source is, in my opinion, where most of the soluble silica comes from in “silica” sand.

So, on to some experiments. I bought some Quickcrete Play Sand from Home Depot and ran a number of tests on it. In all of the cases shown below the silica concentration was determined with a Hach low range silica kit after filtration through a 0.2 mm syringe filter. In cases where the concentration is above 1 ppm, the sample was diluted with RO/DI water prior to analysis. All experiments were carried out in the dark to reduce any effect due to diatom growth.

In the first experiment I took 3 cups of sand, and suspended it in 3 gallons of freshly made Instant Ocean salt mix that initially contained less than 0.8 uM of silica (0.05 ppm SiO2). After 48 hours of gentle stirring with a powerhead (the water was stirring, but not the sand), the silica concentration had risen to 17 uM (1.0 ppm SiO2).

I then rinsed the same sand 5 times with 1 gallon RO/DI water (1 minute each time), discarded the contents, and then ran the same stirring experiment with 2 new gallons of Instant Ocean salt mix. In 48 hours the silica concentration had again risen, this time to 15 mM (0.92 ppm SiO2). Then I let it sit unstirred for another 96 hours, and the concentration had risen more, to 23 uM (1.4 ppm SiO2).

In a different experiment, I took about 45 pounds of sand, and added 2 gallons of Instant Ocean salt mix. I let this mixture sit for 7 days, with once a day mixing with my hands for about 30 seconds. At then end of this test, the concentration was 90 uM (5.4 ppm SiO2).

It has been suggested that the amount of silica coming from calcerous sand might actually be as high or higher than that from silica sand. To test this hypothesis, I repeated the small-scale experiments above on a calcium carbonate sand from Home Depot (Southdown). In this case, there was some soluble silica released after the first 48 h, but only 1.6 uM (0.1 ppm SiO2), or about a factor of 10 lower than the silica sand. In a long-term test, the concentration had only risen to 5 uM (0.3 ppm SiO2) in 14 days with once a day stirring.

From these experiments, I conclude that:

The “silica” play sand that I purchased from Home Depot can substantially raise the dissolved silica concentration in seawater.
The dissolvable portion of the silica sand cannot be completely removed by several rinses with either fresh or salt water, although it may be decreased somewhat by that process.
Southdown calcium carbonate sand (likely aragonite) can release soluble silica, but about ten fold less than the “silica” sand.
Is it OK to use silica sand? Probably. Many people do so. I also believe that not all “silica “ sands will be the same for the reasons described above relating to processing of the sand and the nature of the mineral inclusions present. So the fact that many people successfully use some (or many) types of silica sand does not necessarily imply that all people can use any type of “silica” sand without a problem.

In subsequent sections of this article I describe dosing recommendations for adding soluble silica. Is silica sand a good way to go from that perspective? I cannot really answer that. It probably provides some silica to reef tanks, but the amount is completely out of the control of the aquarist. For that reason alone, I believe that it would be a poor choice as the sole source of soluble silica for a reef tank. In a tank without any silica dosing, silica sand may, in fact, be more beneficial to the overall tank, at least from a silica delivery standpoint, than calcium carbonate sand. There are, of course, many other differences that might be the deciding factor on sand choice (color, texture, dissolution, particle size distribution, nutrient and metal binding properties of sands, etc). Many of these factors are more aesthetic than technical, and the technical ones are beyond the scope of this article.
 
I guess when I started this thread by saying a deep sand bed that is not entirely what I meant....in the front of my tank there is very little sand....would it be ok to put about a cup of sand in certain areas to build it up a little?
 
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