Design Help: Kelp forest and Seadragons?

[charleyb123]

The Leafy Seadragon (Phycodurus eques) and Weedy Seadragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) are protected, but it *is* possible to get permits and acquire legal specimens. Let's assume that's true, and table that for future discussion.

I'm designing a new private residence that will be built on acreage (lots of space on the site). There will be an attached atrium/greenhouse connected to the house, which extends to the bottom of the basement.

For twenty years I've wanted to build a species tank for seadragons, and am intending to construct a tank sharing an acrylic wall with the basement, probably 3-4 meters deep (15 feet or so). (I may be able to go deeper depending ...)

The tank itself is probably on the order of 15'x15'x30', so perhaps 50K gallons (depends somewhat on what we decide for tank shape and slope for the bottom of the tank). This will be a kelp forest, plus seagrasses, and I'm intending it to support its own mysid populations (as a food source).

I've been to public aquariums, and have many of my own ideas (e.g., external surge tanks, overflow to a reef area, etc.) However, there are some really smart people here with really great experience ... do you have design considerations or ideas on things to include?

For example, I'm intending to install geothermal ground loops into the tank foundation and walls for temperature control, install automated data recording and monitoring systems, and intend to install web-controlled cameras with internet feed (so others can monitor my tank). This tank will receive significant direct sunlight (e.g., in the greenhouse). However, I haven't figured out my "surge overflows" between the "coastal/kelp" tank and my reef tanks, am thinking about internal tank separators (e.g., to maintain mysid refuge areas), and some of my other needs (e.g., my style is large tanks with low bio-loads, with minimum external filtration equipment).

Yes, this is a real project, and yes, my wife gave me permission to build this. Because of my "unique needs", I'm acting as owner/builder for this house, so any amount of customization is fine (as long as it makes sense). We'll see how far I get before I run out of money.

...This is intended to be designed as a Seadragon species tank (e.g., kelp forest, seagrasses), but should I have posted this in a different RC forum (e.g., DIY or "large reef tanks")?

Specifically, as we speculate that "depth" is probably a key factor for breeding, is 15' deep a good guess? Is 20' or 30' a better guess?

--charley
Colorado, USA

 

[brward5]

I don't know how many people have privately acquired and kept sea dragons, but I know that the owner of Atlantis Aquariums in Richmond, VA had a pair for a while (3 mos or so). He then donated them to an aquarium that had the capacity to properly care for them. When I spoke to him, one of the main things he cited was the requirement for live mysis that he was flying in daily. If you can't find another person that has successfully kept them, you may consider giving him a call to see what he can tell you. Google should help you find the website/phone number.

 

[philter4]

Don't be discouraged by a some of the posts you will get. A few years back (summer of 2005) there were some legal "captive" raised ones for sale here in south FL. They were expensive, but they were from a permit collected male with eggs and then hatched and raised to 3 inch size and legally imported. Though that was 3 years ago, I'm sure if you reaserch it you will be able to find more when you are ready.

As far as the aquarium goes there are some being kept and raised in a 3 ft tank at the Steinhardt aquarium rignt now. There is also a post here, though I don't know the date to find the link, of a private collector whose dragons laid eggs but didn't hold them. I'm sure you could take the time and look at the back posts to find him and PM him. He is in asia somewhere, but he has photos of the adults, the aquarium, and the eggs.

I had some available to me in the past, but I'm not that into seahorses and I didn't have the tank or chiller needed to keep them. Now that I have the money to set them up I'm not sure I want to take care of them, I've sort of retired and don't want to take care of tanks any longer, so my 2 tanks + nano is about all I want.

I think looking at your set up my thoughts are this, the tank you are looking at building would be too big to control and watch them as far as being able to access the health and feeding and over all well being of them. What I would suggest is scaleing it down to a size that is big enough for them to have room, (and an impressive display) but small enough for you to control the emvironment and still watch to make sure they are eating, no visible signs of disease, things like that.

I'm sure at this point you will have more knowledge then me on their care so for me to regurgitate the parameters they need isn't important, just make sure your tank/chiller/filtration can handle them, and that the size is what they need to breed, and maximum what you need to be able to observe them in a manner that allows you to care for them. Other then that, good luck and post lots of pictures.

 

[charleyb123]

snip, There is also a post here, though I don't know the date to find the link, of a private collector whose dragons laid eggs but didn't hold them. I'm sure you could take the time and look at the back posts to find him and PM him. He is in asia somewhere, but he has photos of the adults, the aquarium, and the eggs.

Is this the post to which you were referring? ...

<http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1398816>

It's a good thread, yes, he got his seadragons through permits two years prior, and apparently he's in Hong Kong.

On your other thoughts ... I didn't think about the tank being too big to control them and access them for health purposes ... I'll have to think about that. (I did have plans for a smaller 4'x3'x8' tank above this one in the kitchen ... I was thinking about that for juveniles...)

I've tended to go "bigger" to ensure an endless supply of mysid shrimp, to have greater environmental stability, to ensure the surface area was reasonable for the depth we're talking about (speculation being they may need at least a couple meters depth before breeding), and to get my lower "bio-loads" (I don't tend to have much external filtration). However, you do make a good point in the event I'm doing "active interaction" with the animals on a regular basis.

Generally I tend to do very little active intervention (I try to automate lights and feeding). But, of course, I've not kept Seadragons before. For this tank, I was intending to have a mysid culture "surge overflow" over the area where the tank shares the wall to the basement, to "encourage" them to "hang out" where I'll be watching them. I'm also hoping to terra-scape to promote higher activity near display areas. (Don't know if that will work, probably requires some experimentation.)

Thanks for your thoughts on not being discouraged ... I'll keep at it, and find a way. Otherwise, I'll have an awesome tank for some other pipefishes! ;-))

Yes, absolutely, I'll post lots of pictures (and it will be a high-resolution web cam! ;-))

--charley

 

[philter4]

If you want a huge tank, I'm all for it, but as a breeding tank for a fish that you will have limited access to (so you may only have 2 or 3 individuals) and not be able to watch them constantly would be tough. I have a tank planned that is similar in size with a retractable roof so on sunny days I have natural sun light. Make the big tank a spectacular display, and just use a managable tank for the sea dragons. Good luck and I can't wait for the photos.

 

[David123]

Dragons do not inhabit giant kelp forests, both are very beautiful, but do not exsist together.

Leafys are found in reef country to open seagrass plains.

IMO you would be best incorperating the two, a seagrass plain running up to a reef with lots of holes where they can hide.

I have dived lots for these, and in the reef country, lots of ground surge, even at 40' and deeper, you sometimes cannot hold on and blow free with the surge and during times like this, the leafys are hiding in deep fissures in the reef.

For good mysid cultures, you will not be able to supply a self sustaining tank, and so you will need a supplementary culture, these are not easy, and a lot of thought will be required for a successful continuous culture. The fry if you are sucsessful will require lots of small, very small mysids, so the culture is doubly required.

You will need to be able to dive this tank, cleaning is a big job, and a daily dive is good, also it will be beautiful for you diving with the dragons.

I suggest a huge UV and also think about 03, incorporate this in with your protein skimmer.

A large harpacticoid copepod colony would also be of benefit.

HTHs

 

[charleyb123]

For good mysid cultures, you will not be able to supply a self sustaining tank, and so you will need a supplementary culture, these are not easy, and a lot of thought will be required for a successful continuous culture. The fry if you are sucsessful will require lots of small, very small mysids, so the culture is doubly required.

For risk management, I was intending to have a number of "refuge" mysid cultures in different tanks to ensure the population isn't wiped out (because as "voracious eaters", I don't really know how big a tank is required to sustain the seadragons). But, logically, shouldn't there exist a tank size that *would* sustain a pair of seadragons (such that they could not deplete the mysid population? How big do you think that might be?

I'm guessing "more than 200 gallons, and less than two million gallons, assuming good mysid habitat"? ;-))

You will need to be able to dive this tank, cleaning is a big job, and a daily dive is good, also it will be beautiful for you diving with the dragons.

A good point, and tank access is a key design consideration. I was assuming the tank should be maintained at around ?65F, so that could be a nice dive in the summer, perhaps not so much in the winter. ;-))

Thanks for your other thoughts ... seagrass fields up to a large reef. Do you think "surge" is important for this environment? I don't know how to realistically "surge" a tank of this size and depth...

 

[Elysia]

You may want to contact some of the companies that produce mysis shrimp -- see how it is that they culture them.

Most seahorse owners want to spend time watching and feeding their horses -- its one of the best ways to ensure that your herd is healthy. Dragons are available, but like lots of fish that are not common in the trade, they aren't always available regularly, especially not in the states (I am assuming you are in the states.) Any dragon is going to be expensive in both time and money, so you'll want to keep your eye on it.

Although I can understand wanting the mysis culture tank to also be a beautiful display tank, it probably will be better for production and availability to your dragons to culture the mysis like the pros do -- and add them to the display and the dragons.

I would keep the height of the tank to what ever the tank height needs to be for the dragons to breed. Perhaps 8'(?) Do a lot of searching. Since it appears that you have the money, travel to some of the public aquariums holding dragons currently. You'll find that their tanks really aren't that large.

And make sure that, whatever it is that you use to cool the tank, it has its own generator. Because where ever you may live, it probably gets too warm for the dragons, and its going to take a lot of energy to cool that much water. Then get a back up generator for the cooling system. Then get a generator for the filtration system. (So 3 generators, just for the tank!) And make sure to post a build thread.

 

[charleyb123]

Although I can understand wanting the mysis culture tank to also be a beautiful display tank, it probably will be better for production and availability to your dragons to culture the mysis like the pros do -- and add them to the display and the dragons.

I guess that makes sense... it would be nice if the tank was self-supporting, but that might be unrealistic....

I would keep the height of the tank to what ever the tank height needs to be for the dragons to breed. Perhaps 8'(?) Do a lot of searching. Since it appears that you have the money, travel to some of the public aquariums holding dragons currently. You'll find that their tanks really aren't that large.

That's the big question: I'm not sure the depth is really well understood. Of course, if they *prefer* 20', then 8' would still probably work, but I have no idea what that means for survivability (nor do I think anyone else knows?)

Since the eggs are pressed onto the male's tail, it makes sense that pressure-with-depth may be a significant requirement for egg holding and development (just guessing though).

I understand public aquarium tanks aren't that large, but that has a lot to do with budgeting and resource allocation, and practicalities for the workers to regularly intervene with the animals. Personally, I'm disappointed with many displays that IMHO should be larger to provide something closer to a sustainable environment (e.g., lower bio-loads, more natural).

For example, 20 tetras in my 20g tank (1" per gal) doesn't really look like much, but 90 tetras in my 180g tank really looks like a lot (1/2" per gal).

And make sure that, whatever it is that you use to cool the tank, it has its own generator. Because where ever you may live, it probably gets too warm for the dragons, and its going to take a lot of energy to cool that much water. Then get a back up generator for the cooling system. Then get a generator for the filtration system. (So 3 generators, just for the tank!) And make sure to post a build thread.

I was going to build geothermal ground loops into the tank and foundation. In North America (I'm in Colorado), the ground temperature 6' down is a constant 50F-55F. So, I'll merely have a pump circulating a closed pipe system to cool the tank. Chillers are expensive, but geothermal pipes should be pretty cheap.

Absolutely "yes" on the build thread! I'm hoping people will spot problems and help me fix them before it's too late. ;-))

 

[TamiW]

On the note of mysis. If you're getting captive bred (which you will likely have to do to exporting restrictions) you'll likely be able to feed frozen mysis. I know that at the Shedd aquarium they do, although they do also grow their own live mysis, which is pretty labor intensive.

Feeding frozen (Actually feeding at all) could be difficult in an extremely large aquarium because the food would be dispersed. So you might want to come up with strategies for target feeding. Seahorses can be trained to eat from a feeder, so I wouldn't doubt sea dragons could as well.

I'm currently trying to get some seahorses to recognize a sound cue for feeding, after seen the Shedd do that with their sharks. So far they don't get it but I've only had them for a little over a week. (The other fish in the tank recognize it though). I tried it at a fish store I worked at years ago and they seemed to recognize it, but I could never really tell if it was that or they just recognized me as the food bringer as the only occasion I had time to stand around and watch them was when I was ensuring they were eating.

There was an article a few years back about hypothetically, if a hobbyist could keep leafy sea dragons, what would it take. I believe public aquariums were consulted. I don't remember the specifics or what magazine it was in though. I do recall them saying 500 gallons would be a minimum. So you're covered there!

Please keep us posted with the progress on this, I'd love to see the entire thing from construction to completion. Good luck!

 

[jd474]

the biggest problem is the live mysids. it costs us appox. $10K/year for these, and it is ESSENTIAL for their health and development (as you're almost assuredly only going to get small juveniles). i have never seen sea dragons pick frozen mysis out of the water column, but will eat off the bottom. please do your homework here if you're really serious. these guys take up to 4 hours a day of work in our exhibit depending on what needs to be done. also, try to find some stuff about health and medication (if even the general public has access to this kind of information). they do get sick for no apparent reason at times, and treatment can be tricky to say the least. at $5,000 a pop, that's a tough pill to swallow.

 

[pledosophy]

I can't really offer any help with what you are planning, but so excited to see your tank. Kudos.

I wish I had something wise to tell you. If I could help I would.

David is the only guy on the boards I know of with expeierence with dragons. If he wasn't already in the thread I would be recommending you got in contact with him.

Please continue to update this thread. If we can help we will. If you can post a web cam with a live link so I can watch your tank 24/7 that would be awesome. Your living the dream.

 

[TAB]

Just a thought about your idea of using geo thermal cooling.

Have you had anyone run "the numbers" to see exactly how much pipe your going to actually need to install? All the systems I've ever been envoled with had several thousands of feet on pipe in ground. They were only for cooling large homes <5k sqft.

It maybe one of those things where it far cheaper to use a diffrent system.


Also do you have any exp in Construction? If not I would highly recomend not doing an owner builder, atleast not alone. Trust me, highering a GC even as a consultent will be worth every penny. I would also be willing to bet that if you look you will be able to find a GC some where in CO that will be able to handle "your needs" No matter how "unique" they are...


I'm a GC, all of us are whores, it just depends on how much money you have.