Diary of a failed breeder

[landlord]

I have some more questions.

How old can the BBS be before they are too big?

What do you gut load them with (or do they still have a yolk sack?)

How long before they are fed to the fry should they be allowed to eat?

I do not think that the BBS get too big per se, but loose their nutritional value quite quickly after hatching (under 18 hours +/-) With that said, I have never tired to gut load them myself but have "soaked" them in Selcon for an hour prior to tossing them in. I have also has just as much success not soaking them at all so no real bullet answers for ya, at least from me.

 

[WDLV]

40 micron sieve. They are easy to make with some micron cloth (Aquatic Eco Systems sells it) and pvc pipe and fittings. You can also order ready made sieves from both Florida Aqua Farms and Aquatic Eco Systems.



IIRC, it's cryopreserved, so no.

Would a paint strainer work? I don't want to have to ship anything else to me unless it's absolutely necessary.

RMI does not cry-preserve anything Bill. We called our products that contained glycerin "cry-preserved) but we no longer make that (been over 5 years since we did). That being said, normal rotifer diet is just Nanno and nanno has been shown to be able to be grown again after freezing


Rotifer Diet is dated though, I'd wait until we reformulate (soon) or get RotiGrow Plus.

Her method workls but I'd use the method Reed uses since you are using a product designed for that use Wilkerson's method would need to be modified.

www.rotifer.com

The normal Rotifer Diet you bought is straight Nanno. In the future I suggest getting RotiGrow Plus. Shortly we'll be modifying Rotifer Diet to be the same mix of algaes as RotiGrow but in different %.

www.rotifer-solutions.com

Good to know and thanks for the tips!
I will be picking up some greenwater and rots from local clown enthusiast this weekend. I will try to grow a portion of that outdoors. My objective being to always have a backup batch of rots.

congrats ! Also Theres a huge pair of tomato clowns at my lfs that lay eggs all the time. Im sure they'd sell them to me. Shoot me a pm if you want them.

ps get those rots and brine goin

To be honest, I'm not really interested in the tomato complex at this time. I'm only interested in raising fry from these so I can "cut my teeth" before trying to raise something I'm more interested in.

I do not think that the BBS get too big per se, but loose their nutritional value quite quickly after hatching (under 18 hours +/-) With that said, I have never tired to gut load them myself but have "soaked" them in Selcon for an hour prior to tossing them in. I have also has just as much success not soaking them at all so no real bullet answers for ya, at least from me.

On that note, do most people syphon the older ones off once they are a day or so old? My thought is to alternate use of the BBS and Oto A every other day.

 

[Iwishihadgills]

true true goodluck

 

[landlord]

I have never tried to siphon out the older ones. I simply keep adding more NHBBS. I've often thought about this as well. How to keep the NH ones in the tank and get the other out. I just cannot bring on any more water changes. It gets to be a chore after a year and many many hatches. IMO

 

[WDLV]

true true goodluck

I forgot to say thanks for the offer.

I have never tried to siphon out the older ones. I simply keep adding more NHBBS. I've often thought about this as well. How to keep the NH ones in the tank and get the other out. I just cannot bring on any more water changes. It gets to be a chore after a year and many many hatches. IMO

I may find it's not worth my time as I am inexperienced in this area. I just have heard that misbarring and other malformations are believed to be the result of poor nutrition. I want to do my best to circumvent that problem so I don't have to cull a lot of them. I hate that aspect but I'd rather cull than distribute jacked up fish.
To that end I ask: At what point can I start introducing foods like cyclopeeze?

 

[landlord]

At what point can I start introducing foods like cyclopeeze?

I believe that Cyclop-eeze comes in at around 800 microns. I would say they could take foods of that size by week 4 (Day 28) +/-

I base this on the age when most of my Tomato batches were able to eat Otohime C1. Which is close to the same size.

I've heard that you can pick up "Golden Pearls" in sizes down to 5-50 microns. Perhaps this is an alternative food for an earlier stage. Never tried it myself.

Kurt

 

[Firedog1962]

amazing thread, love the pics. Keep it up

 

[GreshamH]

I believe that Cyclop-eeze comes in at around 800 microns. I would say they could take foods of that size by week 4 (Day 28) +/-

I base this on the age when most of my Tomato batches were able to eat Otohime C1. Which is close to the same size.

I've heard that you can pick up "Golden Pearls" in sizes down to 5-50 microns. Perhaps this is an alternative food for an earlier stage. Never tried it myself.

Kurt

Otohime comes in smaller sizes then the "A" we offer but the demand is so low we don't import it.

 

[WDLV]

I believe that Cyclop-eeze comes in at around 800 microns. I would say they could take foods of that size by week 4 (Day 28) +/-

I base this on the age when most of my Tomato batches were able to eat Otohime C1. Which is close to the same size.

I've heard that you can pick up "Golden Pearls" in sizes down to 5-50 microns. Perhaps this is an alternative food for an earlier stage. Never tried it myself.

Kurt

OK thanks. I may have to try the golden pearls at a later date. About when should I expect meta to occur with this complex?

amazing thread, love the pics. Keep it up

Will do... as long as people are showing an interest.

Otohime comes in smaller sizes then the "A" we offer but the demand is so low we don't import it.

Too bad. It might be useful as a suppliment to rotifers. After doing some reading I find it disappointing that the aquaculture industry (both public and private) haven't found a wider variety of food options for tiny organisms. I had some Chrysoptera rollandi damsels that were spawning and donated them to a public aquarium... but the fry are too small to eat rotifers. It would be great to find something both effective and affordable in that size range.

 

[GreshamH]

Too bad. It might be useful as a suppliment to rotifers. After doing some reading I find it disappointing that the aquaculture industry (both public and private) haven't found a wider variety of food options for tiny organisms. I had some Chrysoptera rollandi damsels that were spawning and donated them to a public aquarium... but the fry are too small to eat rotifers. It would be great to find something both effective and affordable in that size range.

I hate to tell you this but the stuff that works, you won;t be able to read about it. A lot of trade secrets that make certain hatcheries work will never be released.

A ton of work goes on daily trying to solve the first feed and feed in general. It's not an easy task and very little funding is put forth. Most is private money and private money almost always equates to trade secrets

 

[Rare Angels]

Good luck with things from here on out. I don't know if it's been suggested but you should get a tile or some type of surface in that tank for the pair to lay eggs on next time. It sounds like you have pretty good flow in those tanks, it will kill the larvae quickly when they hatch, plus you don't have to be up in the middle of the night scooping larvae out of broodstock tank and into larvae tank.

Don't give up, it takes time and a ton of patience.

Dave

 

[landlord]

Otohime comes in smaller sizes then the "A" we offer but the demand is so low we don't import it.

Another use for my mortar and pestle!

I'd have never know if you hadn't told me

No Fair!

 

[landlord]

About when should I expect meta to occur with this complex?

I would say that the 7th day the majority of them will show the signs of pre meta. Day 10 you're in. Bent bodies, different behavior, the works. By day 14 you'll start seeing some stripes.

IME, of course.

Walt - Don't forget to Have Fun!

Kurt

 

[WDLV]

I hate to tell you this but the stuff that works, you won;t be able to read about it. A lot of trade secrets that make certain hatcheries work will never be released.

A ton of work goes on daily trying to solve the first feed and feed in general. It's not an easy task and very little funding is put forth. Most is private money and private money almost always equates to trade secrets

I hear the word "proprietary" in my trade as well but in my case they use it as an excuse to keep me from repairing stuff and spend exorbitant amounts of my organization's money... like $400, $600, $800 per hour... my rate being around $65/hr.

Good luck with things from here on out. I don't know if it's been suggested but you should get a tile or some type of surface in that tank for the pair to lay eggs on next time. It sounds like you have pretty good flow in those tanks, it will kill the larvae quickly when they hatch, plus you don't have to be up in the middle of the night scooping larvae out of broodstock tank and into larvae tank.

Don't give up, it takes time and a ton of patience.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Yes. The tile was suggested in another forum but out of concern that they might stop spawning all together, I will collect them myself until I've had an opportunity to raise some.

I would say that the 7th day the majority of them will show the signs of pre meta. Day 10 you're in. Bent bodies, different behavior, the works. By day 14 you'll start seeing some stripes.

IME, of course.

Walt - Don't forget to Have Fun!

Kurt

OK. Thanks. Note to self:
1. Week two = Meta
2. Week three = Have fun!

 

[landlord]

IOK. Thanks. Note to self:
1. Week two = Meta
2. Week three = Have fun!

You're not allowed to have fun until you get a sponge filter in the tank (No more rots, BBS, etc) That's when I begin to have fun!

 

[WDLV]

I'm gonna have an overflow instead.

I haven't quite worked out how I want to limit the flow yet. Another LiterMeter pump is kinda expensive for something that may or may not work out for me. One thought I had was to have a piece of air line tubing draining from one of the big tanks into the fry tank and allow the overflow from the fry tank to drain into the sump. I'll have to play with the flow rate so that it's slow enough that all the rots don't get drained out and the little bit of green water I add to keep the rots going doesn't get drained off too fast.

 

[waldend]

I saw the comments on feeding NHBBS and thought I would chime in with my protocol to help if it can.

I base things on my learnings that after about 12 hours the BBS are nutritionally void and also will begin taking supplementation at that time.

I use 1 hatcher (2 litre and base) at this time and hatch 1 batch per day. I decap my own eggs and start a batch at between 10pm-12am. Prior to starting each batch I feed half the previous batch to the larvae tank as NHBBS. I place the other half (assuming even distribution I simply use water volume to judge) in a vessel and insert an airline to prevent the BBS from settling out and suffocating on the bottom. This is completed from 10pm-12AM. In the morning I feed half the batch from the container. I do this between 6-7am so they are roughly 8 hours old. Nutrition is reduced but I hope that the eggs being decapsulated helps the extra nutrition last longer as well. I also add a good sized batch of rotifers to provide supplementation and filler for the longer daytime period. At this time I also add either Roti-Grow or Selcon to the remaining BBS in the container and restart the airline. At 5-6pm I feed the last of the previous days batch that have been enriching most of the day. I do notice that when I have fed RG+ and rinse the brine they retain a green hue which I believe to be the enrichment. I may also add some more rotifers at this time depending upon my rotifer culture levels. When I want to begin weaning onto dry food I skip the rots in the morning and feed the dry first at the 5-6pm feeding. I give them about an hour to pick at the dry food and then feed the BBS.

Hopefully that all makes sense. Any critiques are welcome as well.

 

[WDLV]

I have a can of decapsulated eggs (if I can find them) how do you decapsulate them???

As I understand your process it's something like this:
10PM - Start a batch
6AM - Feed 1/2 of the batch to the fry, put greenwater/selcon in with the remaining half
6PM - Feed enriched second half and some rotifers
10PM start over

I read in another thread (can't recall poster or thread ATM) that a breeder was trying to combat the problem of slow developers by cutting off the rotifers at a certain point and only offering the BBS. His philosophy being that they would be forced to adapt to the larger food rather than staying on the rotifers and bipassing the the BBS.

 

[waldend]

That's close. I didn't explain well, I should have listed it like you did.

Day 1
Start a batch at 10pm

Day 2
10pm - feed 1/2 of the current batch, put half current batch in container, start next batch

Day 3 and on

6am - feed half of batch put in container on day 2, add enrichment to remaining from day 2, feed rots

6pm - feed last of batch on container from day 2 that is now enriched.

10pm - restart the cycle



As for decapsulating brine. I believe I use Wilkerson's recipe.
1/2 tsp eggs
soak in 2 oz of RO/DI water for 90 minutes, no more than 120 min or eggs can be ruined.
Add 1oz of bleach and stir until eggs turn orange. They will go through stages of brown, white, gray as the layers are dissolved. It should take no more than 10 min. When you are getting close they will begin to foam quite a bit.
Pour into a sieve and rinse until all foam and chlorine smell is gone
Pour into a container ( pour RO/DI water through the back to remove from sieve) and add a bit of dechlorinator.
You can scale that for how many you need. I have mine last me for 3 batches.

 

[WDLV]

So, it takes 24 hrs for them to be usable and another 24 hrs for them to be nutritionally void and in need of gut loading?