Did copper or stress kill my yellow tang in QT?

[rogeragrimes]

I'm a relatively new reefer. I've spent since Thanksgiving getting my new DT ready for more fish (it came with 4 fish that are doing fine). It's cycled and doing well with lots of hard and soft corals and invertebrates.

I setup a new permanent 20 gallon QT months ago, and it took a long time to cycle (finally finishing last week). So me and the wife went to the fish store and bought our first new fish: 1 2.5-3.5" yellow tang, 6 small clown fish, and 2 small cardinal fish.

The owner of my LFS said that I didn't need to quarantine the fish, because his "suppliers have a history of not having problem fish", etc. Still, I took them home and put them in the QT. I watched them for 2 days without adding anything to the tank to make sure they made the transition OK before adding copper.

On day 3, I added copper according to the mfgr's instructions: 1st half dose, wait 48 hours, add 2nd half dose. For two days everything seemed fine, then my wife woke up this morning and found the yellow tang dead. And this was after it was being noticeably "calmer" and hanging out in front of the tank, instead of swimming everywhere and hiding every time we came by.

Is it probably related to the copper or potentially the 9 fish in the smaller QT tank?

The yellow tang was easily the most stressed fish in the tank. He was a burst of energy for the first two days, but he was eating by day two and calming down. At the same time he often was aggressive toward the other fish, chasing them away from food, etc.. I noticed on day 2 or 3 that his dorsal fin had some dings in it.

My QT is empty except for some large PVC joints, heater, and the sponge filter. All the fish seemed to spend most of their time out in the open with some time, especially nighttime, resting in the PVC joints, although the yellow tang was easily the most stressed from the beginning. He seemed to be calming down recently, even before the addition of the copper.

I haven't been able to test for copper, although the test is on it's way to my house from Amazon and BRS. But the other chemicals I can test for are OK: Ammonia is 0-0.25, Nitrite less than 0.5, Nitrate 0, PH is 7.8-8.0 (which is normal for the natural sea water I use in my tanks). Both the QT and DT seem to live at ammonia at 0-0.25 no matter what I do. Nitrite was at 0 at end of the previous cycle and 0 after most recent water change just before I put the new fish in. I'm not panicking at 0.50 Nitrite (although maybe that was the culprit or helper in this case).

Other fish, the cardinals and clownfish, seem to be doing great.

Any thoughts?

 

[scooter31707]

I have heard of tangs being sensitive to cooper, but have not had any experience with this type of situation. I'm curious if it was the cooper or having placed all them fish in freshly cycled 20 gallon tang. That's 9 fish that was put into that tank. The death may have been cause by ammonia or nirite spike with bacteria trying to catch up with that much of a bio-load at one time.

 

[rogeragrimes]

I have heard of tangs being sensitive to cooper, but have not had any experience with this type of situation. I'm curious if it was the cooper or having placed all them fish in freshly cycled 20 gallon tang. That's 9 fish that was put into that tank. The death may have been cause by ammonia or nirite spike with bacteria trying to catch up with that much of a bio-load at one time.

I put the chemical stats up...I don't think it was spike unless you think a 0.5 nitrite or 0.25 ammonia is a spike. I know 0 is desired, but those levels seem too low to kill something...I think...

Yes, 9 fish into a 20-gal is probably concerning...and that's one of the things I'm checking on, but they are very small. The clownfish are like a centimeter big, the two cardinals are about an inch, and the tang was the biggest at 2.5-3.5" at his biggest diagonal measurement. So fish inches per gallon of water seems OK. But I wonder if the yellow tang simply needed more than 20 gallons of water or to be put in there by himself? And does that mean that I can never QT a tang in my permanent 20 gallon QT tank?

 

[Jeff4777]

Man if i had a lfs owner tell me i dont need to quarentine his fish i would never go back. Or does he hold all his fish, qt, and treat them?

 

[Deinonych]

9 fish in a 20 gal is way way way too many. The close quarters and the ammonia probably did the tang in. It's best to QT 1-2 fish at a time. The more fish you have in QT, the greater the chances of one bringing in a disease that wipes them all out. Plus, having that many fish in a small tank makes managing water quality near impossible.

Also, 6 clownfish is going to be a problem long term unless you have a huge DT. Once a mated pair establishes itself, the other clownfish are likely to be harassed and possibly killed.

Nothing good happens fast in this hobby.

 

[rogeragrimes]

My DT is 120-gal, 6ft long.

So 0-.25 ammonia is enough to kill?

I was originally going to buy only two clownfish, but both the LFS and the wife wanted me to buy more. The LFS said more would make them do better...but of course that is what he would say. <grin> I think I read if you get them very young and already together that they have less problems over their lifespan. I guess I'll find out. I have several anemones in the tank so hopefully they can share and distribute as needed. <grin>

Regarding the water quality, I live on a high flow, clean, ocean fed canal and I have PVC pipes running from my canal to my tanks...so water changes aren't a problem...but of course this will be my first monitoring of chemicals with fish in the QT tank. I monitor chemicals daily and so far everything is moving along slowly as expected.

 

[Haffs09]

I had an ich outbreak 5 years ago and treated all my fish (acanthurus and zebrasoma tangs, angelfish and some others) with cupramine. The only fish that didn't handle it well were the zebrasoma tangs. Two purple tangs developed severe HLLE and lost most of their dorsal fins. My desjardini developed HLLE and my yellow lost a ton of weight despite eating. I was surprised all fish pulled through, but the have the battle scars to prove it. From this experience, I will never use copper on zebrasoma tangs to treat for ich. I used the tank transfer method for a friend's black and Achilles hybrid tangs that had ich and it worked extremely well.

 

[Dmorty217]

I prefer CP over copper unless your treating wrasse. Melanarus and tusks aren't negatively effected by CP

 

[snorvich]

You need a different LFS

 

[scooter31707]

Amen.

 

[rogeragrimes]

I prefer CP over copper unless your treating wrasse. Melanarus and tusks aren't negatively effected by CP

What's CP?

 

[rogeragrimes]

What do you think about pure observation for 7 weeks?

 

[kmbyrnes]

You need a different LFS

I wouldn't trust a word that place says.

 

[tylersarah]

Regarding the water quality, I live on a high flow, clean, ocean fed canal and I have PVC pipes running from my canal to my tanks...so water changes aren't a problem...

This is so interesting, especially to me being in Wisconsin, could you share a couple pictures?

As for the fish in qt, seems another nitrogen cycle was initiated by the heavy bio-load. I'd wait to dose more copper until you have the test kit. Are you using Cupramine? The min effective dosage is .35ppm and the advised label amount of .50ppm is too high for many fish, imo. Also, many ammonia test kits do not work in copper, the ammonia badge is recommended.

If it were my qt I'd add a nitryfying bacteria like Bio Spira to help speed along the spike, make sure the powerhead is agitating the surface, cover the aquarium partially to minimize salinity changes (need to keep very stable when using copper) and feed very sparingly.

For the future, Tank Transfer Method is easier on fish and yourself and more effective than copper for Ich. I follow it with deworming, observation, add'tl treatment if necessary and a freshwater dip before entry to the display for a total of at least 8 weeks.

 

[Deinonych]

for the future, tank transfer method is easier on fish and yourself and more effective than copper for ich. I follow it with deworming, observation, add'tl treatment if necessary and a freshwater dip before entry to the display for a total of at least 8 weeks.

+1

 

[Dmorty217]

What do you think about pure observation for 7 weeks?

CP= Chloroquine Phosphate. I know some who do observation only but they buy their fish directly from a diver or have been captive bred( or they cost as much as a car and have been given the best care possible before being sold and Actually are disease free). Also if you don't know what the signs are of different diseases observation will do little for you. Most indicators of disease aren't from seeing spots on the fish but rather from watching the behavior of the fish knowing what things to look for

 

[snorvich]

CP= Chloroquine Phosphate. I know some who do observation only but they buy their fish directly from a diver or have been captive bred( or they cost as much as a car and have been given the best care possible before being sold and Actually are disease free). Also if you don't know what the signs are of different diseases observation will do little for you. Most indicators of disease aren't from seeing spots on the fish but rather from watching the behavior of the fish knowing what things to look for

This. Bolding added.

 

[rogeragrimes]

This is so interesting, especially to me being in Wisconsin, could you share a couple pictures?

What do you mean, you want to see pictures of my canal or pictures of the PVC running from the canal?

Basically I ran 1/2" PVC from my tank to the canal. I had to drill holes through my concrete floors and walls (using 1" 14-inch long carbide drill bit on a hammer drill). I put a strong push/pull pump near the canal to pull the water from the canal to the tank. I use a 6-micron filter to cover the input end, although they are tearing a lot so I need to find something more industrial. I only put the PVC down into the canal (about 4-6 ft...the canal is 12-15 ft deep and fed at both ends by the ocean). I put another regular filter sock over the input end that goes into the pump/tank to catch anything that perhaps grew in the PVC or made it past a torn input filter. I put a slight elevation on the input PVC pipe, so that when I turn it off, it drains all the way back to the pump near the canal, so I don't keep too much NSW in the pipes to grow algae and things like that, although I don't know what the long-term viability will be of keeping the internal of the PVC pipes clean...we'll see.

It's one of the best canals in the Florida Keys. The guy that gave me my first aquarium on Thanksgiving used the same canal for his monthly water changes for years without problem...although he did possibly get some ich, but he never quarantined anything and frequently added substrate and rock without any dips. I hear the 6 micron filters should help me keep the worst canal water bad guys out with that along with avoiding canal water at night and on unclear days. I do not run carbon or a skimmer, because in my current naivety I think it kills too many good things.

I run another 3/4" PVC pipe from my tank (including emergency overflows from my overflow contain and sump) to outside my house. I don't dump it back into the canal because the tank contains non-native species, so I just dump it into my yard, which is composed mostly of keystone gravel with keystone rock underneath.

I have three inputs into my aquarium pump (from canal, from sump, and from tank (for draining during water changes). I have two outputs (one to the tank return for regular operations and one to the discharge pipe that runs outside the house to the yard).

I'm new to (marine) aquariums, but I've read 10 books (multiple times), listened to my other new marine aquarium friends, and I lurk and ask questions here a lot. Most people don't recommend that I use NSW from my canal. In fact, I can't find anyone who supports it. So, basically I'm doing an experiment and I'll share my results.

Right now I use the NSW from my canal for water changes. I plan, if I can prove to my wife that I won't flood the house, start using it more routinely to slip in seawater on an ongoing basis, switching in perhaps 10% seawater and 90% recycled from the sump water during the days on clean water days. My hope is to see great results from bringing in NSW more frequently so I have to add less calcium and other stuff. And measure that good stuff with any badness that I might accidentally bring in.

 

[rogeragrimes]

Update: I got the copper testing kit. The level was nearly .5 or slightly lower. The color is slightly lower than the 0.5 reference sample.

The clownfish are doing great, although the two cardinal fish seem a little less active. Although I don't know if they are less active or the same active as before and just look less active than the clownfish and now that the tang isn't chasing them around all the time.

My plan is to forge ahead with the copper treatment, following the vendor's instructions to have 0.5 or less for three weeks. Then remove the copper, and treat with ParaGuard. then wait for a total of 7 weeks to introduce into the QT.

I appreciate what everyone has said here about different methods, but I'm will probably at least follow this current course for 7 weeks to get my own personal observations (which right now include one dead yellow tang).

One question though regarding TTM...I'm guessing that would require two QTs...and at my level that would mean another 20 gallon tank someone in my house? Wife is barely allowing the two I have...and I want a third full-time one for some lionfish (which we actively survey and eradicate for the REEF Foundation.

 

[tylersarah]

Thanks for sharing those details, I can see how NSW would benefit a system, but also has potential to add contaminants.

For Tank Transfer I use 2 clear rubbermaid bins, 2 powerheads, pvc hiding pieces, 2 heaters and ammonia neutralizer. Some people use buckets, it can be quite simple and should be