Difficult and Special Care Species List

Eh? The only study I'm aware of that examined this (from Australia) concluded that removing cleaner wrasses had no discernible negative effects.

I've read numerous studies over the years showing detrimental effects of removing cleaners from the reef. Here a quote from one showing how reef fish congregate around cleaning stations. I found this after searching for about two minutes

"Slobodkin and Fishelson (1974), working in the Red Sea, studied the influence of the cleaner wrasse, Labroides dimidiatus, on the distribution of other fishes on the reefs off Eilat. They deployed a 10m transect line along the reef slope. They then stopped at the end of the 10m line, moved out perpendicularly from the reef face about 5m, and counted all fishes coming within 1m of either side of the transect's end during a 20-minute survey period. This procedure was repeated 60 times so that 600m of reef face was systematically surveyed. Slobodkin and Fishelson were able to convincingly demonstrate that cleaning wrasse territories acted as a focus for the aggregation of other reef fishes."

Overcollecting of yellow tangs probably hurts the reef more than removal of cleaner wrasses, yet they remain one of the most popular species for aquarists.

So, this is OK with you?

Many divers don't catch them on principle, but there's no law against it.

I heard there was, if there isn't maybe there should be. Sounds like there is a few responsible collectors out there, thats a start.

Cleaner wrasses can learn to eat artificial foods just like other fish, and can be kept in captivity successfully.

This is the rare exception and not the rule. Thousands die for each one that lives.

I'm not trying to promote the irresponsible purchase of difficult-to-keep fish

I beg to differ, thats exactly what you are doing.

From Bob Fenner.

"This is the genus of obligate Cleaner Wrasses most celebrated for establishing stations in the wild that are frequented by "local" reef fishes and pelagics for removing parasites and necrotic tissue. Perhaps shocking to most aquarists, all the Labroides rate a dismal (3) in survivability, even the ubiquitously offered common or Blue Cleaner Wrasse, Labroides dimidiatus. None of the Labroides should be removed, not only for the fact that almost all perish within a few weeks of wild capture, but for the valuable role they play as cleaners."

"On with the issue at hand. One of the wrasse family's fifty eight genera is Labroides, with five described species. The most commonly available is the black, blue and white lined Labroides dimidiatus; the other four have other colors, cost much more money (a few to several tens of dollars U.S.) and should not be offered to the hobby, or encouraged to be so by their purchase."

"Obligates by definition get all or virtually all their nutrient from their cleaning activity; various species setting up permanent cleaning stations with "customer" hosts coming in for regular grooming. Experimental removal of some of these cleaners has demonstrated their immense importance as parasite controls. Local and even large pelagic fish populations are quickly negatively impacted by their removal. Fish populations drop or migrate and remaining fishes lose fitness as measured by increased external parasite loads, sores and torn fins. Casual diving with the four multi-colorful Labroides species reveals that they are of limited numbers and closely defined distribution. When they are removed, the whole reef population suffers."

"Further, these species have not been kept for any length of time in captivity, most dying within a few days to weeks due to a lack of nutritive interaction with host fishes. I have heard stories and seen the endemic Hawaiian cleaner, Labroides phthirophagus accepting dry prepared, freeze-dried, fresh and live foods, still only to waste away and die."
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10322105#post10322105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
It's bubble tip anemone and they're pretty widely available. Whether or not aquacultured specimens are available mostly depends on if someone has an anemone prop system in their hme in your area. I know of no large scale anemone propagation efforts, though the Bubble Tip anemone could be an excellent speimen for such a venture.

Peter, nobody around here has an anemone prop system that I know of.

its more of the case that everyone who has one, within a year, has 5 or 6. Theyre SO easy to keep and grow/reproduce so quickly that you dont need a prop system.


Theyre pretty much unsellable from Maine all the way down into DC It may go further, but I haven't checked places out any further south than that.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10327134#post10327134 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Peter, nobody around here has an anemone prop system that I know of.

its more of the case that everyone who has one, within a year, has 5 or 6. Theyre SO easy to keep and grow/reproduce so quickly that you dont need a prop system.


Theyre pretty much unsellable from Maine all the way down into DC It may go further, but I haven't checked places out any further south than that.

Come to Western/Upstate New York. (Somewhat between Maine and DC...)

They're anything but unsellable.
 
Would still appreciate some more feedback on the Potter's since I'm seriously considering adding it to the second part of the list. More feedback on the Blue Reef Chromis is appreciated as well.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10329958#post10329958 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by happyface888
Oh cool a second list, cant wait to see whats on it. Keep up the good work.

Same list just with some additions and revisions.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10329811#post10329811 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Would still appreciate some more feedback on the Potter's since I'm seriously considering adding it to the second part of the list. More feedback on the Blue Reef Chromis is appreciated as well.

Potters are very hardy, if they're shipped properly. Unfortunately, theyre very rarely shipped properly.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10330131#post10330131 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Potters are very hardy, if they're shipped properly. Unfortunately, theyre very rarely shipped properly.

What makes you think they're shipped any more imporperly than every other fish out there? In fact it would seem likely that since they're a Hawaiian endemic that they go through less shipping and collection stress than most Centropyge Angels.

It's my belief that their secretive nature makes is a little more difficult for them to adapt to aquarium life. Whatever the problem is it seems to be a species that doesn't adapt well, if they make it past the first few weeks they seem pretty hardy.
 
Peter, I've recieved a couple directly from Collectors/Transhippers in hawaii, and they've all survived, and done well. The fish were shipped in larger than normal bags, same day, and ate pretty much everything right out of the bag.

I've had them shipped properly, and survival rates were frankly, astonishing.

The difference between these ones, and the ones at stores are ridiculous. They were vibrant, healthy, and very vigorous.


Theyre no more secretive than any other centropyge IMO/IME.



Also, I feel that too many people take fish like Potters and put them in BB quarantine tanks with no rock. IMO, thats pretty much a death sentence for these fish. They simply will not survive without being able to graze.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10330485#post10330485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I saw potters when I dove in Hawaii. Not secretive at all from what I saw.

Huh, most of the descriptions I've seen is that they fish hand very close to caves, crevices, and coral heads and are rather secretive. Then again, depending on where you look, these fish are always found in harems, always found in pairs, often seen singly, or only found in pairs or harems. They're hardy, they're not hardy, they're very difficult, etc., etc.

I think when I revise the list I'm just going to add a couple more species of angels that are often collected using drugs, bump down the Heraldi, and just make a note about the Potters adapting to aquarium life a little less readily than some other Centropyge species.

Rich, small acrylic cubes are the norm and probably the best way to keep fish at the wholesale level. Many Angels fare well in these conditions for the short time they're there. Also, many Angels are shipped longer distances from poor holding facilities and fare much better than the Potters IME. I've just seen far too many of them not make it more than a week at the LFS and I can't help but think it goes beyond improper shipping practices. Perhaps it's safe to call them a poor shipper though.

Thanks for the feedback guys!
 
I had a haraldi once and I didnt know they were cyanide caught, on the 3rd day it died. It didnt eat or anything kept hidding and when it came out it would then return to its hidding and than dead.
 
Just happened to come across this thread by accident...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1161672

I'll be following that thread to help determine what kind of notes to make on the Potters when it goes on the list. So those of you with Potters Angel experiences get overe there and help Cody out.

Rich, I notice you only have the one aquarium listed. How long have you had your current Potter's and what happened to the other one?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10330988#post10330988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by happyface888
I had a haraldi once and I didnt know they were cyanide caught, on the 3rd day it died. It didnt eat or anything kept hidding and when it came out it would then return to its hidding and than dead.

Pretty typical experience with that fish, athough sometimes drug collected specimens last a little longer than that.
 
I am thinking maybe a month, my brother bought like 5 baby clown triggers, which he later read are caught with cyanide. Not a single baby clown trigger ever made it to 2 monthes, they all looked healthy and were eatting the next day dead. The size he gets them in are about 1inch and he stuck it in his 180g tank and they never ever live pass one month.
 
What a great list! It doest surpris me to see a cleaner wrass and a lawn mower blenny on the list. I was told by many not to expect my wrass to live very long becuase when the parasites are gone it will starve to death, that was 2 yrs ago! I've seen him eat nori and frozin food, and my lawn mower blenny hangs out on the nori clip and munches on it all day too! But he was skinny and close to death for awhile until he figured that out! Boy I got very lucky!
Kudos on the list.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10330950#post10330950 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Huh, most of the descriptions I've seen is that they fish hand very close to caves, crevices, and coral heads and are rather secretive. Then again, depending on where you look, these fish are always found in harems, always found in pairs, often seen singly, or only found in pairs or harems. They're hardy, they're not hardy, they're very difficult, etc., etc.

I think when I revise the list I'm just going to add a couple more species of angels that are often collected using drugs, bump down the Heraldi, and just make a note about the Potters adapting to aquarium life a little less readily than some other Centropyge species.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Yeah, I'm not sure. I only saw them that once. But they were out in the open, happily rasping little rocks sitting in the sand on the bottom right under me. Could have been a fluke or a locality thing. And perhaps this translates into ones that do or don't do well in captivity? Anywho, just adding my experience :)

Did you see my earlier post?...I really think you need to highlight Pseudanthias tuka and even pascalus as anthias to avoid more than the general group.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10330993#post10330993 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Just happened to come across this thread by accident...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1161672

I'll be following that thread to help determine what kind of notes to make on the Potters when it goes on the list. So those of you with Potters Angel experiences get overe there and help Cody out.

Rich, I notice you only have the one aquarium listed. How long have you had your current Potter's and what happened to the other one?

I've had the current one about a year. He came in around the size of a quarter, and is considerably larger now. I'm trying to see if I can get a couple of small ones right now, and see if I can build a harem, I'll let you know how that goes.

The last one I had for roughly a year and a half, and he disappeared in a tank move.



My Potters is a complete HAM. Hes always out, very active, and very personable. The previous one was the same, so I dont think theyre all that secretive. Theyre reef grazers, yes, so theyre always near rock, but theyre not hiders.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10331570#post10331570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Yeah, I'm not sure. I only saw them that once. But they were out in the open, happily rasping little rocks sitting in the sand on the bottom right under me. Could have been a fluke or a locality thing. And perhaps this translates into ones that do or don't do well in captivity? Anywho, just adding my experience :)

Did you see my earlier post?...I really think you need to highlight Pseudanthias tuka and even pascalus as anthias to avoid more than the general group.

Yep, I saw it, and I agree the Anthias and Butterflies need a little work on the list.
 
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